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purehybrid 20th February 2012 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hosh0 (Post 14100795)
That's exactly where the skill came in! Thanks for proving my point, if you didn't think about what you were doing you were punished for it! Oh no the terror of it all!

So you would prefer a game designed around theorycraft, than actual gameplay? You didn't have to use skill to plan your character build in d2, you just had to yahoo! it (lol).

The "skill" in d3, is supposed to be in-combat. Where you're required to position and use your abilities effectively.... at least... thats the plan >.>

Being punished for not doing a few hours reading before you play your new game, is fucking retarded.

hosh0 20th February 2012 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purehybrid (Post 14100848)
So you would prefer a game designed around theorycraft, than actual gameplay? You didn't have to use skill to plan your character build in d2, you just had to yahoo! it (lol).

The "skill" in d3, is supposed to be in-combat. Where you're required to position and use your abilities effectively.... at least... thats the plan >.>

Being punished for not doing a few hours reading before you play your new game, is fucking retarded.

No but being punished for not just spending points where ever you felt like it certainly is great. Not once did I do any reading on a good build or anything like that. I just you know used my brain and supported my choices with gems etc. I fail to see where any skill lies in just been given everything and then being able to swap it out as you see fit.

In D2 my char destroyed certain enemies and struggled against others as they were immune to my main skill set (lightening damage for example) now that is totally gone from the game.

But nah that's a good thing right?

Philll 20th February 2012 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hosh0 (Post 14100950)
I just you know used my brain

I'll stop you there, because using this is becoming less and less of a requirement in most games.

Apparently fun can only be derived from such games when everything is handed to you, god forbid you pay $60-$80 for a game you'll play for hundreds of hours without investing a single second into figuring out how the game works and how to benefit yourself. Nup. Now you need to be able to play while drifting in and out of a coma.

purehybrid 20th February 2012 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hosh0 (Post 14100950)
No but being punished for not just spending points where ever you felt like it certainly is great. Not once did I do any reading on a good build or anything like that. I just you know used my brain and supported my choices with gems etc. I fail to see where any skill lies in just been given everything and then being able to swap it out as you see fit.

I don't see skill in either tbh. Which is why I don't feel like anything has been lost with regards to skill. If you were complaining about linearity or reduction of permanent choices, I could understand... but skill? come on. If you actually cared about gaming skill, you'd be playing a competitive game instead of a hack and slash.

Whatever minute amount of skill you can derive from filling stats and talent trees, is nullified by a single google search, at which point it is no longer skill, but simply whether somebody can be bothered thinking of, or googling, an optimal build. Enthralling stuff right there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hosh0 (Post 14100950)
In D2 my char destroyed certain enemies and struggled against others as they were immune to my main skill set (lightening damage for example) now that is totally gone from the game.

But nah that's a good thing right?

That is still there... it just takes a minute or two to readjust your skillset, rather than having to restart from scratch. In fact, I think the skill requirement of a player needing to know his class and objectives well enough to decide what skills he'll need on the fly, is far higher.

Your gear will still be tailored to one main setup, but a good player will be able to modify his ability setup to offset some weaknesses exposed by the current environment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philll (Post 14100980)
Nup. Now you need to be able to play while drifting in and out of a coma.

lol... I completely understand the crusade against dumbing down games. Hell, I'm usually championing it myself... however, d3 already looks like it has FAR FAR FAR more mechanical depth than its predecessors combined. Granted, 90% of it won't be found until you hit inferno, but at least it is there.

D2:
1) Find optimal build online
2) Grind and spam pots
3) ???
4) Profit

D3:
1) Find optimal build online... find it only works for X, and you're trying to do Y... find optimal build for Y... progress to Z, require new build.... decide its better to just learn your fucking class and make your own builds on the fly.
2) Grind and... oh... can't spam pots... theres a cd... so I guess I'll have to use my defensive skills properly rather than just mashing 1 skill forever...
3) ???
4) Profit

Ravennoir 20th February 2012 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purehybrid (Post 14101108)

D2:
1) Find optimal build online
2) Grind and spam pots
3) ???
4) Profit

D3:
1) Find optimal build online... find it only works for X, and you're trying to do Y... find optimal build for Y... progress to Z, require new build.... decide its better to just learn your fucking class and make your own builds on the fly.
2) Grind and... oh... can't spam pots... theres a cd... so I guess I'll have to use my defensive skills properly rather than just mashing 1 skill forever...
3) ???
4) Profit


I think this is a good description of what they are trying to achieve

Rather than trying to setup a build which will play a certain way, Blizzard and trying to make the make more evolving. So thoughout the game you build has to change to match the situation

Example :

Skill A might be good against Monster A
Skill B might be good against Monster B

Get a group with monster A and B, and you need to find a Skill C which might work

Also adding the Runes in the Skill adds more changes to the Builds

I havent played with the Runes yet, but im hoping to get a go with the latest beta soon

joe_sixpack 20th February 2012 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philll (Post 14100980)
I'll stop you there, because using this is becoming less and less of a requirement in most games.

Apparently fun can only be derived from such games when everything is handed to you, god forbid you pay $60-$80 for a game you'll play for hundreds of hours without investing a single second into figuring out how the game works and how to benefit yourself. Nup. Now you need to be able to play while drifting in and out of a coma.

Isn't that why they have "levels of difficulty" in games? Joe Casual can rock up and play the game on normal mode and have a good time. Then Mr Hardcore can take into account more game mechanics etc and play it a different way.

I'll think you'll find lots of challenging games still exist. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of you would spend time Google'ing which works the best etc in regards to skills/stats/items etc, rather than spending hours researching it yourself.

Philll 20th February 2012 1:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe_sixpack (Post 14101451)
Isn't that why they have "levels of difficulty" in games? Joe Casual can rock up and play the game on normal mode and have a good time. Then Mr Hardcore can take into account more game mechanics etc and play it a different way.

Difficulty doesn't mean complex or challenging unless more mechanics are being offered for higher difficulty levels.

Starting at the bottom of the barrel with COD, Joe Casual plays on easy. He can take a whole heap of shots before keeling over as he ducks in and out of cover shooting enemies with ease.

Mr Hardcore comes along and does the same thing, except he dies a lot quicker if he's shot. It's on hard, yet he's only able to duck in and out of cover like Joe Casual. There are no complex actions he can use to overcome the challenge a higher difficulty level presents.

It's a poor analogy in comparison to D3, but when you want a hard and challenging game it can't just be from woofing the damage you take up to 11, any single game in existence can do this.

I don't know what the obsession is with googling/yahooing other people's builds anyway. Why not play it for yourself, get a feel for the game to know what you're doing and build your own character? If you're only going to build from a template anyway, then that's all they should create, templates where you level up and can't pick anything.

purehybrid 20th February 2012 1:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philll (Post 14101491)
Difficulty doesn't mean complex or challenging unless more mechanics are being offered for higher difficulty levels.

Starting at the bottom of the barrel with COD, Joe Casual plays on easy. He can take a whole heap of shots before keeling over as he ducks in and out of cover shooting enemies with ease.

Mr Hardcore comes along and does the same thing, except he dies a lot quicker if he's shot. It's on hard, yet he's only able to duck in and out of cover like Joe Casual. There are no complex actions he can use to overcome the challenge a higher difficulty level presents..

uhh... yes there is. The entire concept of awareness... reflexes, twitch, tracking, etc. The pro has the same tools as the casual, but uses them much more effectively, due to skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philll (Post 14101491)
It's a poor analogy in comparison to D3, but when you want a hard and challenging game it can't just be from woofing the damage you take up to 11, any single game in existence can do this.

Blizz have already stated that it isn't just damage that goes up. Enemies have more abilities, and those abilities become more meaningful in the higher difficulties.

Damage increase definitely contributes to skill requirement though... for a super simplified example: You can have a boss that does an AOE pulse every minute after a 2second wind-up. In normal, you just tank it, and get some globes afterwards maybe. In inferno, that 1shots everyone unless they don't use proper mitigation tactics, be it cooldowns or positioning. Similar to your CoD example, if the casual gets hit a couple of times, so what... if the guy playing on hardest gets hit, he dies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philll (Post 14101491)
I don't know what the obsession is with googling/yahooing other people's builds anyway. Why not play it for yourself, get a feel for the game to know what you're doing and build your own character? If you're only going to build from a template anyway, then that's all they should create, templates where you level up and can't pick anything.

The build research is how all this started. The complain that, because builds are changeable, skill requirement is lowered. The counter was, that most people either googled the optimal build, or didn't give a shit about optimal builds. There is no 'skill' involved in this.

Philll 20th February 2012 1:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purehybrid (Post 14101536)
uhh... yes there is. The entire concept of awareness... reflexes, twitch, tracking, etc. The pro has the same tools as the casual, but uses them much more effectively, due to skill.

And? Where is the new challenge presented? The difficulty level has changed and you die quicker. You play the exact same way. What else is there to overcome? Where are the complexities of using a squad and giving orders, suppressing enemies, flanking, flushing them out with 3 types of grenades, using the right weapons for the right missions and so on, it's all meaningless because the game only likes to make you die quicker with the same dumb AI that likes to poke its head out at the exact same pixel coordinate every few seconds.

How do I overcome this? I don't stand out in the open as much. That's a challenge to you? 'Difficulty' levels are a joke now.

Quote:

Blizz have already stated that it isn't just damage that goes up. Enemies have more abilities, and those abilities become more meaningful in the higher difficulties.
I'm not specifically talking about D3 and damage, I'm answering the question that wasn't about D3 either, this is why I called it a poor anology

purehybrid 20th February 2012 1:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philll (Post 14101578)
And? Where is the new challenge presented?

In the fact that you actually have to play the game instead of W + M1.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Philll (Post 14101578)
The difficulty level has changed and you die quicker. You play the exact same way.

You don't... You can't. All that cover that you wouldn't have even noticed now becomes essential. In the unfortunate case of CoD, all those triggerpoints that you'd never have thought about, you now have to metagame. etc.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Philll (Post 14101578)
What else is there to overcome? Where are the complexities of using a squad and giving orders, suppressing enemies, flanking, flushing them out with 3 types of grenades, using the right weapons for the right missions and so on, it's all meaningless because the game only likes to make you die quicker with the same dumb AI that likes to poke its head out at the exact same pixel coordinate every few seconds.

How do I overcome this? I don't stand out in the open as much. That's a challenge to you? 'Difficulty' levels are a joke now.

I'm not specifically talking about D3 and damage, I'm answering the question that wasn't about D3 either, this is why I called it a poor anology

Don't get me wrong, I totally get what you are saying. Removing depth = bad... and it is definitely a huge trend in gaming atm. However, I just don't feel they've removed any depth at all with this change.

Thor 20th February 2012 4:34 PM

purehybrid has covered pretty much my opinion on the changes.

Played through the beta again last night after the patch. I like what they're trying to do with the skill interface but it isn't intuitive how to map your skills to the different hot keys. Once you know how it's simple, but the leap of logic to get there is a bit lacking.

Zabba 20th February 2012 4:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hosh0 (Post 14100795)
That's exactly where the skill came in! Thanks for proving my point, if you didn't think about what you were doing you were punished for it! Oh no the terror of it all!

Skill =/= Strategy

When I was playing D2 I did not have access to the intertubes or any other way to know how a skill would perform at end game. so the only way to test them was to actually GET to end game. Many times I didn't like how my char turned out so I had to change my build and start over....and over...and over. After the 4th or 5th time it actually got pretty boring.

All my problems with D2 were not because I "didn't think” about what I was doing...on the contrary, it was because I was thinking too much.

In D2 there was very little encouragement to divert from the “optimal” build, so there were plenty of skills that I never used. As cool and effective a skill might be at a certain point of the game, why spend skill points on a skill that you know it is going to be useless later on?

By having the ability to change the skills on the fly I think it actually adds strategy and depth. Not only it gives you the chance to explore and get to know your character well, it also makes you aware of your foes and their weak points.

Slidey 20th February 2012 4:54 PM

sounds like they are just worried of not being able to make alot of expansions with new things in it

First D3 expansion - runes are back as items!

Ravennoir 20th February 2012 5:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slidey (Post 14102255)
sounds like they are just worried of not being able to make alot of expansions with new things in it

First D3 expansion - runes are back as items!

That doesnt sound like an expansion

They have to add teh extra characters and map first

Annihilator69 20th February 2012 5:22 PM

I think that there should be an ability to respec, not 100% sure how to manage it though make it a 'gold' cost or something.

In D2 what happened was you were a new player, and as soon as you got a skill you spent it in whatever you thought was good/needed to finish the game. I did this solo as I didn't even have the internet at this stage.

Then came the invention of the internet and multiplayer and PvP so your character that you used for PvE solo group ends up being crap at level 40 as you spent 20 skills maxing "Might" at level 1-20 and at level 30 you got a new skill "Sacrifice" which obsoletes might as it does the exact same thing but better so 20 skills are burnt in some skill that you will never use.

So as a player you were like GTFO! You're telling me cause I made a poor decision at the start now my character is crap.?

What ended up happening was that you saved all your skill points till like level 30 (get someone to rush you through) and unloaded once you got there as the 'early' skills are/were useless.

What pissed me off the most about D2 was the 90 day limit on characters expiring.
Don't play for 3 months and they delete your character you spend ages grinding shit on. That there a lot of the time made me give up the game.


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