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Old 8th October 2017, 6:33 PM   #751
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Originally Posted by adamsleath View Post
..dunno. but i have crushed a chip in the past (cracked/crumbled the edge of it) i wouldn't trust myself.

1.35V as far as i will go, maybe....dunno im looking forward to it
It's OK, Village Idiot has done the exact same thing.

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Old 8th October 2017, 6:37 PM   #752
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If the average fps is 80 or 110 arent you basically getting the same experience?

I would still rather see a chart with 4k or 1440 or maybe have a chart showing minimum fps
If 80fps and 110fps was equal in terms of the gaming experience, then why would there be a need for high refresh rate gaming monitors at all?

All things being equal, generally the chip with the higher avg framerate also has the higher minimums as well. There are numerous reviews which show min fps (Gamers Nexus for example show 0.1% and 1% mins) so the data is out there if you really want to see it.

Its not a huge spoiler to say that CFL generally has the higher min framerates as well.

As for 1440P and 4K, they are increasingly useless as a CPU benchmark because the GPU would be the bottleneck, especially at 4K, because you end up with a flat and boring GPU limited chart looking something like this:


That is why 4K 'CPU benchmarks' are meaningless because it tells us nothing about how the CPU actually runs game code - it is constantly waiting on the maxed out GPU. If we take these figures at face value we might as well conclude that an $80 Pentium G4560 is just as good as a $500 8700K at gaming - clearly that is not the case.

Last edited by The OC; 8th October 2017 at 6:45 PM.
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Old 8th October 2017, 6:52 PM   #753
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If the average fps is 80 or 110 arent you basically getting the same experience?

I would still rather see a chart with 4k or 1440 or maybe have a chart showing minimum fps
144hz monitor owners say hi.....
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Old 8th October 2017, 7:01 PM   #754
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It's OK, Village Idiot has done the exact same thing.

image
Ive never damaged a cpu core and have never returned something that was #testednofaultfound unlike yourself

i suspect your salty as you now realise you have an expensive ryzen paperweight. in 2 maybe 3 weeks we will see a flood of ryzenz on the 2nd had market as people upgrade to CL.

I might buy one for the lolz. @ 50% off RRP.( about the most they are now worth)
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Old 8th October 2017, 7:28 PM   #755
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It's OK, Village Idiot has done the exact same thing.

image
...this is way back around 2004....applied pressure unevenly to the chip with the hs (big clunker of an air cooler)...they are quite delicate little things, the tiny chips .
it didnt matter because i was just mucking around with an old cpu - and i wanted an excuse to get a new one...

i suppose it would be easier to put an aio or cold plate as they are less bulky. never done it.

anyone got an idiot's guide video for mounting a cold plate to a delidded chip?

i suppose it just requires care to tighten the heatsink very slowly and evenly.
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That's just my opinion and no-one has to share it nor do I need to be converted.

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Old 8th October 2017, 7:32 PM   #756
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anyone got an idiot's guide video for mounting a cold plate to a delidded chip?
I think gamers nexus did a guide on how to modify the socket to mount a block direct to the cpu die.
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Old 8th October 2017, 7:53 PM   #757
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. too much trubble. theres a ek precise mount thing i saw. but i reckon id still manage to crush the cpu
ill stick with the ihs.
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Old 8th October 2017, 8:42 PM   #758
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[QUOTE=The OC;
That is why 4K 'CPU benchmarks' are meaningless[/QUOTE]

Though I agree with this, when we're talking enthusiast parts it's not unfair to expect enthusiast usecases like 1440p and a caveat in the review pointing out the GPU bottleneck.


1080p is more realistic but on that same techpowerup page a stock Ryzen 5 only shows a 6-7% defect when compared to the 8700k, 1080p is still GPU bottlenecked in 2017. This goes to the point we can demonstrate how much more powerful an Intel i7 is with a 1Ghz clock advantage at 720p but no-one buying that chip or platform will be running less than 1080p. What does it matter how much more natively powerful if the raw performance can't translate to significantly higher frames (mins or otherwise) for at least another 3-5 years of GPU releases on configurations people are using.
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Old 8th October 2017, 9:54 PM   #759
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My i5-8400 and MSI Z370 board should arrive this week.

I CBF overclocking these days (forum ban!) so I will let the chip do the work... 2.8GHz => 3.8GHz with boost.

I game at 1440p with a GTX1080, so the 8600K is only a few percent better, at best.

I don't know if it will be a big improvement over my current 2600K, but at least I know I won't be CPU limited.

The only game where I am expecting noticeable gains is Fallout 4, as it is memory speed dependent, and I will be getting much faster DDR4 compare to DDR3.
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Old 8th October 2017, 9:58 PM   #760
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Originally Posted by AEKaBeer View Post
Though I agree with this, when we're talking enthusiast parts it's not unfair to expect enthusiast usecases like 1440p and a caveat in the review pointing out the GPU bottleneck.


1080p is more realistic but on that same techpowerup page a stock Ryzen 5 only shows a 6-7% defect when compared to the 8700k, 1080p is still GPU bottlenecked in 2017. This goes to the point we can demonstrate how much more powerful an Intel i7 is with a 1Ghz clock advantage at 720p but no-one buying that chip or platform will be running less than 1080p. What does it matter how much more natively powerful if the raw performance can't translate to significantly higher frames (mins or otherwise) for at least another 3-5 years of GPU releases on configurations people are using.
Fair point, though in fairness the TPU results are on a 1080 GTX, whereas pcgamer users a 1080 Ti which is why the spread is greater between the CPUs at 1080P.

As a gamer who games at 1080P (well, ultra widescreen 1080P - 2560 x 1080) I know exactly what you mean by 'real world' usage vs 'academic' analysis of CPU performance. It is still revelant and useful data though, because while I know the resolution I game at is predominantly GPU bound on my current hardware (I run an R9 Fury) when I do upgrade my GPU in the future, it is good to know which CPU has the extra 'headroom' to handle faster GPUs like the 1080 Ti, which while being bleeding edge today, will probably be equivalent to a mainstream card in 2 years time. Think back to 2015, the 980 Ti was reigning supreme. Fast forward to today and it isn't much faster than a GTX 1060. The same will happen to the 1080 Ti.

Considering I generally keep my CPU for a few years before upgrading, and go through 2 or 3 GPU upgrade cycles, the 720P data is definitely useful to have as a gauge to how well a CPU will handle more powerful GPUs in future.
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Old 8th October 2017, 10:10 PM   #761
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My i5-8400 and MSI Z370 board should arrive this week.

I CBF overclocking these days (forum ban!) so I will let the chip do the work... 2.8GHz => 3.8GHz with boost.

I game at 1440p with a GTX1080, so the 8600K is only a few percent better, at best.

I don't know if it will be a big improvement over my current 2600K, but at least I know I won't be CPU limited.

The only game where I am expecting noticeable gains is Fallout 4, as it is memory speed dependent, and I will be getting much faster DDR4 compare to DDR3.
Considering it's age, the 2600K is still a pretty good gaming chip even by todays standards, especially when overclocked to 4.5GHz or more with fast DDR3. If you were only running DDR3-1600 on the 2600K, then the difference between it and the i5 8400 would be quite substantial. If you were running say, DDR3-2133 though, I don't think the gain will be that big going to the i5 8400, assuming of course that the 2600K was overclocked. And 1440P on the GTX 1080 will be mostly GPU bound, as you said.

Still, let us know how you go, as I'm still running a Sandy Bridge setup for my desktop so some 'real world' feedback about the upgrade would be appreciated!

Last edited by The OC; 8th October 2017 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 8th October 2017, 10:24 PM   #762
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Originally Posted by CrazyDez View Post
My i5-8400 and MSI Z370 board should arrive this week.

I CBF overclocking these days (forum ban!) so I will let the chip do the work... 2.8GHz => 3.8GHz with boost.
Kinda sucks that you have to buy a Z370 board with the 8400 if you have no intention of overclocking.
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Old 8th October 2017, 10:24 PM   #763
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Originally Posted by darkbastard View Post
has anyone even seen a listing for the Asrock Z370 Taichi

https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z370%20Taichi/index.asp

Thanks
I hadn't the other day, that's the only reason I grabbed the Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming K6, it was the second highest in their stack.

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Originally Posted by dirkmirk View Post
If the average fps is 80 or 110 arent you basically getting the same experience?

I would still rather see a chart with 4k or 1440 or maybe have a chart showing minimum fps
Definitely not the same.

I look at 1080p results for CPU comparison, then 1440p to see if there's much difference because that's what I game at.

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Originally Posted by adamsleath View Post
who's going to start the coffee lake owner's and overclocking thread?
that will be typically a Ryzen discussion free zone....
i'm getting more and more envious of those who actually have the latest rigs.
I don't have the time to update such a thread, but would love to contribute to one

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Originally Posted by B.D.R View Post
That's the first time I have seen a delid video

More rough than I thought it was , going to all that trouble though, why keep the spreader, why not just put a water block straight onto the die
It's scary the first time if you just jump in with your main CPU

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Originally Posted by darkbastard View Post
This was interesting.
https://www.pugetsystems.com/blog/20...-Results-1058/

More of what we heard elsewhere. The question is - does this make Asus boards better for the enthusiast or is it “deceptive practice”
I'm not a fan at all. Look at the surge in auto voltages!! I don't like auto anything to start with and this just amplifies the existing problem.

If you want more performance, get the right gear and overclock it yourself with manual voltages I say

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Originally Posted by Tazor View Post
CL is a mixed launch but the 8400 is certainly a phenomenal product for the price and probably one of the few attainable sku's
The 8400 is going to sell very well

Quote:
Originally Posted by The OC View Post
If 80fps and 110fps was equal in terms of the gaming experience, then why would there be a need for high refresh rate gaming monitors at all?

All things being equal, generally the chip with the higher avg framerate also has the higher minimums as well. There are numerous reviews which show min fps (Gamers Nexus for example show 0.1% and 1% mins) so the data is out there if you really want to see it.

Its not a huge spoiler to say that CFL generally has the higher min framerates as well.

As for 1440P and 4K, they are increasingly useless as a CPU benchmark because the GPU would be the bottleneck, especially at 4K, because you end up with a flat and boring GPU limited chart looking something like this:

That is why 4K 'CPU benchmarks' are meaningless because it tells us nothing about how the CPU actually runs game code - it is constantly waiting on the maxed out GPU. If we take these figures at face value we might as well conclude that an $80 Pentium G4560 is just as good as a $500 8700K at gaming - clearly that is not the case.
Minimums, all forms of stutter and any lag matter much more to me than maximums and to some degree even averages

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Originally Posted by wintermute000 View Post
144hz monitor owners say hi.....
Hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by AEKaBeer View Post
Though I agree with this, when we're talking enthusiast parts it's not unfair to expect enthusiast usecases like 1440p and a caveat in the review pointing out the GPU bottleneck.


1080p is more realistic but on that same techpowerup page a stock Ryzen 5 only shows a 6-7% defect when compared to the 8700k, 1080p is still GPU bottlenecked in 2017. This goes to the point we can demonstrate how much more powerful an Intel i7 is with a 1Ghz clock advantage at 720p but no-one buying that chip or platform will be running less than 1080p. What does it matter how much more natively powerful if the raw performance can't translate to significantly higher frames (mins or otherwise) for at least another 3-5 years of GPU releases on configurations people are using.
Although a valid point, there's so much more that doesn’t show in many tests. Some of the 99th percentile, dropped frames and other results (such as regular drops that can be felt in gameplay but don’t always appear obviously on graphs) paint a much clearer picture in my eyes.

I do use a lot of single thread heavy DX11 and even DX9 app's though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDez View Post
My i5-8400 and MSI Z370 board should arrive this week.

I CBF overclocking these days (forum ban!) so I will let the chip do the work... 2.8GHz => 3.8GHz with boost.

I game at 1440p with a GTX1080, so the 8600K is only a few percent better, at best.

I don't know if it will be a big improvement over my current 2600K, but at least I know I won't be CPU limited.

The only game where I am expecting noticeable gains is Fallout 4, as it is memory speed dependent, and I will be getting much faster DDR4 compare to DDR3.
It’ll be better mate, especially in minimum FPS and general response

Quote:
Originally Posted by The OC View Post
Fair point, though in fairness the TPU results are on a 1080 GTX, whereas pcgamer users a 1080 Ti which is why the spread is greater between the CPUs at 1080P.

As a gamer who games at 1080P (well, ultra widescreen 1080P - 2560 x 1080) I know exactly what you mean by 'real world' usage vs 'academic' analysis of CPU performance. It is still revelant and useful data though, because while I know the resolution I game at is predominantly GPU bound on my current hardware (I run an R9 Fury) when I do upgrade my GPU in the future, it is good to know which CPU has the extra 'headroom' to handle faster GPUs like the 1080 Ti, which while being bleeding edge today, will probably be equivalent to a mainstream card in 2 years time. Think back to 2015, the 980 Ti was reigning supreme. Fast forward to today and it isn't much faster than a GTX 1060. The same will happen to the 1080 Ti.

Considering I generally keep my CPU for a few years before upgrading, and go through 2 or 3 GPU upgrade cycles, the 720P data is definitely useful to have as a gauge to how well a CPU will handle more powerful GPUs in future.
A great point.
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Happy to if you can get my daughter off Netflix for 5 seconds so i can grab the friggen thing 16 cores and I'm still waiting on women
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Old 8th October 2017, 10:26 PM   #764
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Originally Posted by The OC View Post
Considering it's age, the 2600K is still a pretty good gaming chip even by todays standards, especially when overclocked to 4.5GHz or more with fast DDR3. If you were only running DDR3-1600 on the 2600K, then the difference between it and the i5 8400 would be quite substantial. If you were running say, DDR3-2133 though, I don't think the gain will be that big going to the i5 8400, assuming of course that the 2600K was overclocked. And 1440P on the GTX 1080 will be mostly GPU bound, as you said.

Still, let us know how you go, as I'm still running a Sandy Bridge setup for my desktop so some 'real world' feedback about the upgrade would be appreciated!
I've got Sandy, Ivy and Haswell all running here at the moment so I'll be doing some comparisons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonfly View Post
Kinda sucks that you have to buy a Z370 board with the 8400 if you have no intention of overclocking.
Indeed, that'd be a dynamite drop in for 7th gen users.
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Happy to if you can get my daughter off Netflix for 5 seconds so i can grab the friggen thing 16 cores and I'm still waiting on women
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Old 8th October 2017, 10:49 PM   #765
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I've got Sandy, Ivy and Haswell all running here at the moment so I'll be doing some comparisons
Sweet, looking forward to it!

Most reviews only show comparisons with Sky/Kaby Lake and Ryzen so its somewhat hard to get a gauge of how older CPUs compare.
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