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Old Today, 10:53 AM   #22381
bcann
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Those purple cables look like its been bundled with plastic zip locks... isn't that a no no?? I havn't read the latest BICSI but have always thought Velcro type ties should be used to stay compliant?
I swear to god i'm gonna castrate the next "Licensed Cabler" that wanders into my office with cable ties.
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Old Today, 11:11 AM   #22382
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I swear to god i'm gonna castrate the next "Licensed Cabler" that wanders into my office with cable ties.
Cable ties are fine. I used them all the time... on hydraulic lines on an ROV, that goes deep-water.

If it's going in my DC it's velcro or no-go.
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Old Today, 11:37 AM   #22383
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I swear to god i'm gonna castrate the next "Licensed Cabler" that wanders into my office with cable ties.
Thats OK, If I can't use cable ties, I'll just use this big ol' role of Duct Tape, that will leave entire bundles of cables covered with sticky goop...

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Oh is it time for the image and patching discussion again already?
I refer to it as 'that time of the month' for obvious reasons.

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If you have images that can go stale or have any need to maintain a gold master, you're doing it wrong.

We have no gold master. We deploy 100% patched and up to date code at every deploy, production-ready, no extra patch step needed.
I'm not aware of any VDI solutions that don't rely on some sort of gold master or parent VM concept. It's not 'the year of the linux desktop' yet, so most VDI solutions only offer rudimentary support for linux desktops, which result in missing many of the features that provide the most value.

Last time we upgraded, I was hoping to build a PoC linux desktop, but not be able to run linked clones, or support floating desktop pools made it a non-starter.

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And "making things better" doesn't have to mean staying with the same vendor, either.
I'd love to work in a place where you can chop and change vendors if one part of their offering doesn't fit your needs exactly, but other considerations make that an impossibility in most environments. There is sufficent internal momentum, skills and tooling built around existing products and vendors, that it takes something BIG (from a business perspective) to drive a move away.
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Old Today, 1:36 PM   #22384
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I'd love to work in a place where you can chop and change vendors if one part of their offering doesn't fit your needs exactly
You can. You just don't want to.

You're a smart fella. Sounds to me like you could easily get yourself a job with a dream startup anywhere in the world. You've chosen to stay in a limited environment, but that doesn't make the environment "right". Again, folks need to stop letting emotion cloud objectivity. *Everything* can be improved, and I'm not the bad guy for saying it out loud.

Hand on heart, there's a tonne of things wrong with where I work. I'm trying to make them right, and there are things that make that difficult. Doesn't stop things being wrong.

And a "wrong thing" is needing to maintain gold masters. That's 1990s computing, that is. We're smarter than that now, regardless of who won the desktop wars. Some folks just need to catch up to a more modern way of doing things. By all means, continue to use their stuff. But it's wrong, and can be better, like everything. Doesn't need to be a bigger deal than admitting that.
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Old Today, 1:58 PM   #22385
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Sorry Elvis but I cannot agree there. Sometimes there just isn't an alternative vendor, even given all the money in the world. Or more practically in most organisations, there isn't a cost effective alternative. SCADA stuff is a good example, Adobe Software is a good example, staff productivity suites built around MS office is a good example.

It's not to say you couldn't do the majority of what artists want on FOSS, but the cost of changing to the business could be a game ender. Sure you could rip out your existing SCADA stuff and upgrade to a totally open and well managed / updated system, but at what cost? Etc etc.

I've probably accidentally strawmanned myself there but so be it, IT is inevitably a business function, and if business wants to wear the risk of propriety formats, and/or shittily supported systems, or constantly enjoy vendor steak dinners (with all the scotch and %cola% they want) that's their decision.

Unless I'm missing something here, that's a utopia that's completely out of alignment with reality. Not to say you shouldn't strive for an environment where vendors can be chopped and changed at your behest, but at this point in time it's just not practical from where I'm sitting.
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Old Today, 2:08 PM   #22386
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Not to say you shouldn't strive for an environment where vendors can be chopped and changed at your behest, but at this point in time it's just not practical from where I'm sitting.
it's not practical where i'm sitting either in terms of the proprietary software required to operate proprietary instruments.

if you want to use different software, you have to buy a different instrument, which isn't always possible due to the specific functions that some instruments can do and others can't.
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Old Today, 2:08 PM   #22387
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You've chosen to stay in a limited environment, but that doesn't make the environment "right". Again, folks need to stop letting emotion cloud objectivity. *Everything* can be improved, and I'm not the bad guy for saying it out loud.
Is Right and Wrong something that can be (or should be) objectively measured?.

Are you trying to set your environment objectively "right" or just "right for you?" What metrics do you use to measure "rightness", and how do you compare before, with after?

The further up the stack you go, (and the further away from the decision making point you are), "Right" quickly becomes a very relative thing...

When you make choices, you're rarely going to choose something that ticks ALL the boxes, so you make a choice of best-fit (or are forced into a choice previous decisions... that choice branches to other choices of best fit, which can lead to objective "Wrong" answer, being the best choice.

Business Needs are "blah"
BlahApp covers business needs at acceptable costs
Blah App Wants Windows.
Business requires SOE desktop for task workers
I choose VDI as my solution (Because BlahApp doesn't support RDS, and Managing individual desktops is balls)
I choose my VDI solution Vendor
All VDI Solution Vendor uses Gold Images (or a similar concept)


At what step in the decision making process was the "Wrong" decision made?


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Old Today, 2:12 PM   #22388
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Is Right and Wrong something that can be (or should be) objectively measured?.
In places, sure. For example: maintaining images is stupid, and wrong.

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BlahApp covers business needs at acceptable costs
Blah App Wants Windows.
I bet you a steak dinner your search for BlahApp only covered Windows apps to begin with, and there were a dozen OS-agnostic apps out there that suited you fine, but you missed them all. Tail wagging the dog on that one.

But hey, keep telling me how you're stuck with shitty vendors. I'm all ears.

Unrelated, how do we like the idea of ads in explorer.exe? Vendors, eh? Aren't they great?
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Old Today, 2:20 PM   #22389
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looktall's argument about proprietary hardware is pretty bang on Elvis, most bullshit stuff isn't widespread in the sense that everybody uses it, but it meets the goals of a business objective. And if there is not a different widget you can use to fulfil the goal, you're boned.

Sure you could make your own widget from scratch, but if it costs 1 million to rebuild the widget from scratch, or you can breakfix it for 15 years for a million dollars, no business is gonna rebuild the widget.
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Old Today, 2:28 PM   #22390
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I bet you a steak dinner your search for BlahApp only covered Windows apps to begin with, and there were a dozen OS-agnostic apps out there that suited you fine, but you missed them all. Tail wagging the dog on that one.
There were a number of open source projects that could have been adapted to fit parts of the business requirements.

They would have fallen down at the 'at acceptable costs' part, because software development is expensive, and the risks that would be raised by using custom software wouldn't have been deemed acceptable... Instead of being held over a barrel by $Vendor, we'd be over a similar barrel by $Developers or be up for similar migration costs to bring some other $Deveopers up to speed... or up for ongoing costs to bring development in-house, and when our core business is nothing to do with software development, that's never going to end well.
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Old Today, 2:32 PM   #22391
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looktall's argument about proprietary hardware is pretty bang on Elvis
I don't doubt it. I'm talking about banal desktops here, not specialised equipment. The discussion spawned from maintaining gold masters of software images, specific to Windows VDI deployments.

And again, if your VDI is delivering "email", please don't tell me you *need* Outlook and thus Windows. Ditto for other banal officey tasks. People are so very good at willingly handing the keys to their castle to their vendors for tasks we superseded decades ago with far more cost effective alternatives that allow people to work orders of magnitude faster.

It all reminds me so much of those old Mainframe guys who fought x86 tooth and nail, telling us that their business needed to keep doing things the old way. Sorry geezer, but we can process text heaps faster and at 1/1000th the dollar cost now. Ditto for Outlook lovers and email today.
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Old Today, 2:38 PM   #22392
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I don't doubt it. I'm talking about banal desktops here, not specialised equipment. The discussion spawned from maintaining gold masters of software images, specific to Windows VDI deployments.
It's not specific to Windows VDI deployments. I still need a Linux Gold Master if I want to deploy Linux desktops.

The SOE is for delivering the LOB App
The LOB App is windows Only and integrates with MS Office.

So now we've got windows, and office why would we give users a substandard Web Based E-mail client instead a full fledged personal information management tool that integrates with the rest of the Suite?
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Old Today, 2:40 PM   #22393
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I don't doubt it. I'm talking about banal desktops here, not specialised equipment. The discussion spawned from maintaining gold masters of software images, specific to Windows VDI deployments.

And again, if your VDI is delivering "email", please don't tell me you *need* Outlook and thus Windows. Ditto for other banal officey tasks. People are so very good at willingly handing the keys to their castle to their vendors for tasks we superseded decades ago with far more cost effective alternatives that allow people to work orders of magnitude faster.

It all reminds me so much of those old Mainframe guys who fought x86 tooth and nail, telling us that their business needed to keep doing things the old way. Sorry geezer, but we can process text heaps faster and at 1/1000th the dollar cost now. Ditto for Outlook lovers and email today.
As you've said, it's pretty situation dependent.

To me, wrong is spitting in the face of better practice and logic, rather than choosing something that you know leads to vendor lock in simply because you can't do it any other way within your organisational constraints (which tend to lead to vendor constraints).

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It's not specific to Windows VDI deployments. I still need a Linux Gold Master if I want to deploy Linux desktops.
What are you defining as a 'gold master' in that situation? Linux you can have it say simply 'I want this Kernel and this UI' and at deployment current patches are pulled down. You define a recipe rather than having pre prepared software... AFAIK you can't do that with windows
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Old Today, 2:40 PM   #22394
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It's not specific to Windows VDI deployments. I still need a Linux Gold Master if I want to deploy Linux desktops.
Fuck no. Nobody in Linux land worth their paycheck uses gold masters. We moved to recipe based deployment a long fucking time ago, which lets us deploy a hell of a lot faster for a fraction of the cost.
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Old Today, 2:41 PM   #22395
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Those purple cables look like its been bundled with plastic zip locks... isn't that a no no?? I havn't read the latest BICSI but have always thought Velcro type ties should be used to stay compliant?
Purple cable is 2 core braided shielded audio cable, it is zip-tie friendly, but they are very loose, only just tight enough to keep the slack from drooping.

There are also zips on large bundles of Cat-x for support only.
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