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Old 21st March 2017, 12:50 PM   #361
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NBN provides a service qualification estimate of what speed a line can carry as part of the ordering process, which takes into account a lot of factors that a simple line trace won't do. there is no need for the access seeker to know specific line details beyond that.

I'm also not aware that Telstra regularly provided line construction data? possibly for one-off requests, and perhaps for ULLs (not sure, never really worked on them much).
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Old 21st March 2017, 1:43 PM   #362
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NBN provides a service qualification estimate of what speed a line can carry as part of the ordering process, which takes into account a lot of factors that a simple line trace won't do. there is no need for the access seeker to know specific line details beyond that.
The estimates are pretty useless. I wouldn't bother quoting them to customers. That said, a huge number of services are probably affected by the internal cabling given your explanations of how sensitive VDSL is compared to ADSL for internals, and NBN typically won't assist with that.

The only problem comes when raising a fault for a FTTN service and NBN refuse to provide any information about the line length, aside from the DELT estimate. I found the NBN FTTN faults staff rather untrustworthy, which would largely be down to their training and also a bit of the attitude that comes from offshored staff.
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I'm also not aware that Telstra regularly provided line construction data?
The SQs we got back from Telstra had the number of joints and the distance between each joint down to the metre, gauge of each section of cable, material (copper or aluminium), insulation type, in-length bridge taps. Data was the same for SSS or ULL services.
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Old 21st March 2017, 3:18 PM   #363
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I know how they work, and the person who wrote them - he's one of the three people I know that I consider real experts on DSL transmission over copper. they work pretty well within the limits of what theoretical service qualification can achieve. that's never going to take into account line faults or issues, be they internal or external. the purpose is to give guidance to the maximum speed a line is likely to support, so allow an informed choice of service speed tier.

no, NBN won't fix internal wiring past the network boundary point, which is defined by the Telecommunications act. but the company provides tools for access seekers to remotely diagnose issues that can affect services such as bridge taps, untwisted wiring, interference from power sources etc.

what you you need the line length for, the the purposes of reporting a fault?

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The SQs we got back from Telstra had the number of joints and the distance between each joint down to the metre, gauge of each section of cable, material (copper or aluminium), insulation type, in-length bridge taps. Data was the same for SSS or ULL services.
oh, that was CPR2 datascrape. I and a colleague wrote the tool that interpreted that raw data for internal use.

that's pretty much what the NBN SQ tool digests and gives you an estimated speed from, plus some other inputs. there's no need for the raw data, you'd just be replicating what the SQ tool does, but less accurately.
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Old 21st March 2017, 5:57 PM   #364
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dude wut? You have the best kind of NBN available to you, and you're not getting it?! at this point you probably only have 6-8 months before your ADSL is cut off
Yeh I'm shit :/ Better hurry up now.

Think i was mostly delayed cos I wanted the indoor unit in my garage but don't have nice finished walls and was worried about where they'd put it.
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Old 21st March 2017, 7:14 PM   #365
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no, NBN won't fix internal wiring past the network boundary point, which is defined by the Telecommunications act.
Yes, but you know how well it goes down when you tell a customer that their internal cabling, which appeared to be completely fine for ADSL, is causing problems on their VDSL2 service. My personal preference would be that NBN at least send someone to check the line to the boundary point to prove what speed it's getting there before telling customers they have to fork out of their own pocket to fix internal issues which are caused by a technology change.

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but the company provides tools for access seekers to remotely diagnose issues that can affect services such as bridge taps, untwisted wiring, interference from power sources etc.
It's great that it can do this, but given how much trouble there can be getting NBN to acknowledge the most basic of faults (an open circuit) and how poorly NBN's staff explain the issues it's hard to have any faith in the system.

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what you you need the line length for, the the purposes of reporting a fault?
Trying to work out whether it's worth pursuing a sync speed fault or not.
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Old 21st March 2017, 9:01 PM   #366
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Yes, but you know how well it goes down when you tell a customer that their internal cabling, which appeared to be completely fine for ADSL, is causing problems on their VDSL2 service.
that's life.

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My personal preference would be that NBN at least send someone to check the line to the boundary point to prove what speed it's getting there before telling customers they have to fork out of their own pocket to fix internal issues which are caused by a technology change.
if the access seeker gets the end user to do a proper isolation test , that is largely what would be achieved.

let's assume NBN rolls a truck, isolates the service at the NBP, and it's fine. who pays? the end user? that won't be any more popular, and NBN will charge *their* customer for the truck roll - the access seeker - it's now up to them to decide who wears the cost.

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It's great that it can do this, but given how much trouble there can be getting NBN to acknowledge the most basic of faults (an open circuit) and how poorly NBN's staff explain the issues it's hard to have any faith in the system.
if the line is open circuit, it won't sync. that's a truck roll. what's hard?

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Trying to work out whether it's worth pursuing a sync speed fault or not.
but why do you need that to do so? assume you've done your isolation test etc, if the line doesn't hit minimum bitrate then it's a truck roll. exceptions include indications of bridge tap inside the premises past the NBP (not NBN's problem), or unregistered CPE.

I don't see what the line length adds to the process. it's either a reportable fault condition or not, line length isn't a factor.
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Old 21st March 2017, 9:35 PM   #367
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it's a particularly poor idea when you don't have any way of knowing the actual line length, including considerations like maintenance loops, the actual path the cable takes, the length of the tie cable to the node etc. or the construction of the cable, number of joints, gauge, material, insulation type, or condition of the line. or the attenuation pad loaded into the DSLAM. or the level of noise in the cable from assorted sources.

at that stage you're setting an expectation for yourself based on a model of assumption too simplistic to give an accurate result, and based on input data of unknown accuracy.
To be fair though, I took into consideration the most logical path for the copper to be run not the actual shortest but unfortunately all the public can get are guesses as to what and how when we actually need details as to why.

I did actually call up nbnco to get the line length from my house to the node but alas, the only company with the info can't provide any details because they don't have the info?

The only solid info I have about my line is that it's 40 years old...
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Old 21st March 2017, 10:01 PM   #368
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that's life.
Yes, I've acknowledged this in other threads

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if the access seeker gets the end user to do a proper isolation test , that is largely what would be achieved.
End user can isolate down to one socket all they like, secondary sockets will still be connected which may or may not be influencing the end result.

Quote:
let's assume NBN rolls a truck, isolates the service at the NBP, and it's fine. who pays? the end user? that won't be any more popular, and NBN will charge *their* customer for the truck roll - the access seeker - it's now up to them to decide who wears the cost.
There should be at least the option of user-pays technician callouts. To my understanding, at present, there is no such option.

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if the line is open circuit, it won't sync. that's a truck roll. what's hard?
This is where we go back to the arguments I've had with you in the past about how hard it was to get Telstra to fix ADSL faults where you swore black & blue the procedures were different, but the reality was far more difficult than you claimed. The FTTN callcentre/faults staff are simply not that easy to deal with and it can require excessive amounts of back & forth with them to get a truck roll. We can tell them explicitly the line has been cut, it's syncing with the incorrect modem, it's still on ADSL and they just ignore you and insist a second modem is tested. It's either poor training, poor uptake on training or just frequently not reading notes.

NBN is also the only wholesale provider who does not have a phone escalation procedure.

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but why do you need that to do so? assume you've done your isolation test etc, if the line doesn't hit minimum bitrate then it's a truck roll. exceptions include indications of bridge tap inside the premises past the NBP (not NBN's problem), or unregistered CPE.
Again, because the FTTN staff are stupid. I've had them tell me all sorts of figures that ARE out of spec are within spec. Can't trust them as far as you could throw them. Considering the documents relating to minimum speeds only quote line length and nothing about condition... just tell us the damn line length based on cable records and not a DELT estimate.
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Old 21st March 2017, 11:49 PM   #369
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My belief was that fibre to the premises ran a fibre cable all the way from the exchange to each house and so FTTP involved no node cabinets like with FTTN. There would need to be cooling at the telephone exchange itself but this cost would be substantially lower than the ongoing cost of cooling thousands of node cabinets.
I actually thought that's what the difference between FTTN/C and FTTB/P as well....a direct line that goes straight from the exchange to your house and nothing inbetween to conflict it.

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The NBN implementation of fttp is using GPON, in which a single fibre from the CVC (exchange if you will) goes to a local passive optical splitter, from which individual fibres run to each house. You dont have a single fibre running from your house to the exchange. Those splitters are either in a pit or in a cabinet. Unlike FTTN though, there's absolutely no power required, as they are passive splitters

The downstream signal uses wavelength division multiplexing (each house has their own colour of laser if you will), and is encrypted so other houses cant snoop on you, and the upstream uses TDMA
Ok, what about the non-nbn implementation of FTTP/B? Would that be a direct line straight from the exchange to the building still or would there be something inbetween....?
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Old 22nd March 2017, 2:13 AM   #370
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Ok, what about the non-nbn implementation of FTTP/B? Would that be a direct line straight from the exchange to the building still or would there be something inbetween....?
FTTP and FTTB are not similar. FTTB and FTTN are similar. FTTB = fibre to a DSLAM in the building.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 2:47 AM   #371
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FTTP and FTTB are not similar. FTTB and FTTN are similar. FTTB = fibre to a DSLAM in the building.
I thought FTTP and FTTB were the same; FTTP being the fibre line coming straight the premise, hence "P", and that could terminate...well really anywhere within the premise, so it could be outside the house in a box on the driveaway or inside the house in a room, and FTTB being fibre line coming direct to the building (hence "B")so it doesn't terminate outside the building but only the inside ....oh wait there is a difference, one is where it can terminate *inside* a building whilst the other having the ability to terminate anywhere as long as it's within the premise, so could be *outside* the building or inside it...

Oh, you can get your own DSLAM unit? Cool, so FTTB is a direct line from the exchange to the DSLAM unit which is *inside* your building/house? Wait a second.....you said FTTN and FTTB is similar, so there would be a node somewhere inbetween the exchange and your house, but from there - it's a direct fibre line your house where the DSLAM is situated?

But the difference between FTTB and FTTN is that with FTTN, instead of a direct fibre line to your house, it's using the existing copper line that was used for DSL and there's also no DSLAM unit required. Did I get it right?

So what about FTTP(non-nbn implemented of course)? There's no node inbetween the exchange and your house and is a direct fibre line from there to your house? In which case FTTP would be the *best* out of all three(2nd would be FTTB and then last FTTN)? Or and perhaps of all the fibre type connections?

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Old 22nd March 2017, 4:45 AM   #372
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I thought FTTP and FTTB were the same; FTTP being the fibre line coming straight the premise, hence "P", and that could terminate...well really anywhere within the premise, so it could be outside the house in a box on the driveaway or inside the house in a room, and FTTB being fibre line coming direct to the building (hence "B")so it doesn't terminate outside the building but only the inside ....oh wait there is a difference, one is where it can terminate *inside* a building whilst the other having the ability to terminate anywhere as long as it's within the premise, so could be *outside* the building or inside it...

Oh, you can get your own DSLAM unit? Cool, so FTTB is a direct line from the exchange to the DSLAM unit which is *inside* your building/house? Wait a second.....you said FTTN and FTTB is similar, so there would be a node somewhere inbetween the exchange and your house, but from there - it's a direct fibre line your house where the DSLAM is situated?

But the difference between FTTB and FTTN is that with FTTN, instead of a direct fibre line to your house, it's using the existing copper line that was used for DSL and there's also no DSLAM unit required. Did I get it right?

So what about FTTP(non-nbn implemented of course)? There's no node inbetween the exchange and your house and is a direct fibre line from there to your house? In which case FTTP would be the *best* out of all three(2nd would be FTTB and then last FTTN)? Or and perhaps of all the fibre type connections?


From someone that knows nothing, but has been bothering to follow this thread and other sources.. hopefully without misinterpreting. There are a lot of acronyms in this thread

No, you can't get your own DSLAM unit. You get an NBN modem, not the same thing of course.


FTTB is fibre to the basement. Yeah, there's a distribution point (Node?) within the building.. a DSLAM I presume by SupremeMoFo's wording. The basement is in an apartment or office complex, NOT a home.

The DSLAM (Node?) provides individual connections to each user. This would probably mean copper from the distribution point to each apartment, using existing copper (unless its a new building and no copper exists, in which case I would assume fibre would be used all the way to your modem).


Still (usually?) a better option than FTTN since you are A: probably closer to the Node/DSLAM, B: the copper is probably in better condition than copper buried under the street, and C: unless you live in a building with a shitload of apartments, there are probably less users sharing the connection.


FTTN means fibre to the Node.. a distribution point on the street somewhere. Fibre goes to the Node.. from there to you, its copper all the way baby.. so if you have FTTN you are hoping that you aren't a long way from the node, and that the existing copper is in good condition.


FTTP means fibre to the premises, linking the premises to the Node via fibre instead of copper. This means either its a brand new installation and no copper already exists, or the copper has been deemed to be in inferior condition and not suitable to be re-used. This is as I understand it, the best option IF you can get it.. but you'll only get it IF the old copper or HFC has been deemed just too crappy to use.


HFC is the existing cable network, Hybrid Fibre/Coaxial, which if you are in an area where it exists and is deemed fit for purpose, is what your premises will use to connect to the Node rather than a manky old copper line.

That's what I'm getting connected to in a couple weeks. I'm told its one of the better possibilities, so I have my fingies crossed..

As I understand it.. ALL of those possibilities mean connecting to a Node, its just how they connect to your premises that is different.

These are all fixed line connections of course.

The other option, if a fixed line option is not practicable from the NBN's point of view, is fixed wireless. This would be a much better wireless than current wireless connections I'd imagine, and data wouldn't cost you the earth as wireless data currently does..
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Old 22nd March 2017, 7:58 AM   #373
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I did actually call up nbnco to get the line length from my house to the node but alas, the only company with the info can't provide any details because they don't have the info?
no, the person you spoke to doesn't have access to that info, because they don't need it to do their job. the reason for *that* is that the person calling them doesn't need it either.

your ISP gets an SQ speed estimate when they raise an order. that is all that is required.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 8:28 AM   #374
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End user can isolate down to one socket all they like, secondary sockets will still be connected which may or may not be influencing the end result.
yes, the same as for any other non-user accessible issue like hardwired alarm systems. there are just some things the user can't achieve.

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There should be at least the option of user-pays technician callouts. To my understanding, at present, there is no such option.
why? the user can get a telecommunications tech out themselves whenever they want to. the network carrier isn't there to provide a convenient alternative.

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This is where we go back to the arguments I've had with you in the past about how hard it was to get Telstra to fix ADSL faults where you swore black & blue the procedures were different, but the reality was far more difficult than you claimed.
and I stand by what I said. the procedures are what they are. if they're not being implemented correctly and you're not receiving the service you're contractually entitled to then that's something that should be called out with the management of the responsible group.

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We can tell them explicitly the line has been cut, it's syncing with the incorrect modem
that's easy to demonstrate. provide the MAC address of the modem at the premises. it won't match the one in the port test.

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NBN is also the only wholesale provider who does not have a phone escalation procedure.
sorry, but incorrect. there is a clear escalation path for your account manager or operational point of contact to escalate to their NBN customer relations manager.

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just tell us the damn line length based on cable records and not a DELT estimate.
you don't need it. there's nothing useful you can use it for.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 9:34 PM   #375
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and I stand by what I said. the procedures are what they are. if they're not being implemented correctly and you're not receiving the service you're contractually entitled to then that's something that should be called out with the management of the responsible group.
Cool, we'll make a complaint, Telstra/NBN pay lip service to it, nothing changes.

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that's easy to demonstrate. provide the MAC address of the modem at the premises. it won't match the one in the port test.
Yes, it should be that easy. Many, many instances where this is not understood by NBN FTTN staff.

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sorry, but incorrect. there is a clear escalation path for your account manager or operational point of contact to escalate to their NBN customer relations manager.
That's not what I said.

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you don't need it. there's nothing useful you can use it for.
You're not comprehending what I'm saying. All good, your position won't change, I know that.
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