Overclockers Australia Forums

OCAU News - Wiki - QuickLinks - Pix - Sponsors  

Go Back   Overclockers Australia Forums > General Topics > Overclocking & Hardware

Notices


Sign up for a free OCAU account and this ad will go away!
Search our forums with Google:
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12th March 2017, 3:59 PM   #1
KoroKoro Thread Starter
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 10
Exclamation Help. Workstation vs Consumer hardware for CAD

Hi,

So the boss wants to upgrade our systems in the office (way over due) and he seems fixated on Xeons and Quadros.

Our software is primarily Autodesk Inventor and AutoCAD (avoided when possible), and possibly moving into Revit, Navisworks etc

We've all been well aware that our software has only ever been limited to single core cpu performance. Everyone has been complaining to Autodesk for better multi-core utilisation... decades on and still no better. Further more, it turns out Inventor doesn't even utilise gpu acceleration. Unfortunately though this is the system we are stuck with as all of our projects and parts libraries are set up for it.

So my boss doesn't seem to want to give up his Xeons 2014 and M4000 quadros regardless of cost. We aren't running any "mission critical" overnight calculations so I personally don't see the need for ECC memory.

It turns out the best cpu to date for Inventor is the new 7700K... and in terms of specs, the GTX1080Ti absolutely crushes the new quadro P4000... Not to mention our IT guy has the attitude that we cant have "gaming" hardware because we are to do "work"... Maybe thats what they think "Workstations" are for...?

Plus it seems we are limited to having the hardware supplied from Dell. I'm certain they would never approve anything alienware... So wondering why we must have a $6000 workstation when I can get a $2500 consumer chip...?I could use the left over change for better monitors (don't want 4K) and the best mouse I can get. A bigger desk would be nice!

http://www.dell.com/au/p/xps-8920-de...s-8920-desktop

Unfortunately this one doesn't seem to have the K series chip... so i'm guessing I am missing out of the factory 4.5GHz boost clock and some cache... Would it be possible to custom order that maybe?

I also noticed the 7700K only has 16 pcie lanes... so I'm not sure how that is supposed to work with the nvme drive without kneecapping the link to the gpu.

Are there any better options besides the Xeon E5-1630 v4 (quad core @ 4.0GHz boost) and the E5-1650 v4 (6 core @ 4.0GHz boost)

Cheers guys

Last edited by KoroKoro; 12th March 2017 at 4:06 PM.
KoroKoro is offline   Reply With Quote

Join OCAU to remove this ad!
Old 12th March 2017, 4:11 PM   #2
RyoSaeba
Member
 
RyoSaeba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Perth
Posts: 11,272
Default

You're not the one buying it so why are you bothering with consumer grade gear? Also you're not the one supporting or fixing anything if it breaks. Let desktop support do their job and you do yours.
RyoSaeba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2017, 4:25 PM   #3
KoroKoro Thread Starter
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 10
Exclamation

Thing is... its not IT choosing the hardware. Us (engineering) have been tasked to spec them.

It concerns me as it directly affects my productivity.

Here are some benchmark videos showing how slow the Xeons are bottlenecking (8 minute mark changes to 4790K and doubles performance)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnOtGrX_dBk&t=636s

And here he direclty compares the 4790K with a dual socket Xeon and in 99% of all operations its about 2x faster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkwq8BzdzIg

If I have to do an extra collective 10 hours a week of unpaid overtime for waiting on a brand new slow computer... Then my performance (KPIs) will definitely suffer.
KoroKoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2017, 4:28 PM   #4
RyoSaeba
Member
 
RyoSaeba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Perth
Posts: 11,272
Default

Then spec it with 7700k and 1080ti and submit it. If they don't like it then they can do their own job.
RyoSaeba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2017, 4:33 PM   #5
elvis
Old school old fool
 
elvis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 28,500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoroKoro View Post
It concerns me as it directly affects my productivity.

If I have to do an extra collective 10 hours a week of unpaid overtime for waiting on a brand new slow computer... Then my performance (KPIs) will definitely suffer.
Have you said all this, in as direct a business context, to your boss?
__________________
Play old games with me!
elvis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2017, 4:42 PM   #6
KoroKoro Thread Starter
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 10
Default

Well, as far as I'm aware, I don't even need a 1080Ti (was just comparing to P4000)... As far as software goes, it doesn't support any GPU acceleration... So long as I am not using onboard video, I'm guessing it makes no difference.

What I am asking is:

Why do I need a workstation Xeon?
Why do I need ECC ram?
Why do I need double point precision? What gpu would you go with?
Is there a better performing CPU (for single core tasks) than the 7700K?
Would only 16 pcie lanes kneecap the nvme drive?
Wouldn't that money saved be better allocated on ergonomics?

I'm not 'that' into IT, so I don't know all of the consequences of using an i7 for office work (has never been an issue before). But as far as I know, it could blow up 3 times over 6 years and would still be cheaper than the workstation.

Cheers
KoroKoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2017, 4:42 PM   #7
2_stroke
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: cranbourne 3977
Posts: 1,157
Default

Who cares, its not your problem so let them deal with it. Its there pockets and job not yours so just let it be, sometimes its not a good idea to stick your nose where it shouldn't be in the work place.
__________________
http://bfbc2.elxx.net/sig/clean1/pc/2stroke.png
Successful trades
Sold to: chopstick9558, jackdaw, davomaster, haksam, jomo, kingpeck
Bought from: h$v, epo299, tangcla, Gillyske, winterstide, jboles, nooobs,Sainter4Life, auron1
stop listing years ago just way to many trades lol
2_stroke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2017, 4:46 PM   #8
RyoSaeba
Member
 
RyoSaeba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Perth
Posts: 11,272
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoroKoro View Post
But as far as I know, it could blow up 3 times over 6 years and would still be cheaper than the workstation.
So who's gonna support it if it does blow up 3 times over 6 years? What will you do during those time? How long will it take for parts to be available? How long do you guarantee those parts being available for? Who's looking after all that?
RyoSaeba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2017, 4:47 PM   #9
KoroKoro Thread Starter
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis View Post
Have you said all this, in as direct a business context, to your boss?
Not in those exact words, but our team is aware of the lack of performance of our current software (2017 Pro). Solidworks doesn't seem to be any better and is lacking quite a lot of features we use every day.

I doubt Autodesk will lift their game before our new machines become obsolete in 6 years time.
KoroKoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2017, 4:52 PM   #10
elvis
Old school old fool
 
elvis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 28,500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoroKoro View Post
Not in those exact words, but our team is aware of the lack of performance
No offence, but your team's opinion is worthless if they're not signing the cheques.

The boss' concern is money. You need to talk their language. You need to show the boss that it's going to cost more money in the long run in wages/time/missed-deadlines than it is to save a few bucks on hardware.

Unless... it doesn't. And it's a lot cheaper to buy half price workstations and pay you a bit of overtime (or put on more staff). In that case, you've lost the battle.

Businesses exist to make profit. Everything else (the comfort and convenience of staff, for example) is a distant second. You can argue all you like that that's a really harsh outlook and it's not all warm and fluffy, but that's the way it is in the modern capitalist world.

If you want to win the battle, speak the same language as your boss.
__________________
Play old games with me!

Last edited by elvis; 12th March 2017 at 5:13 PM.
elvis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2017, 4:56 PM   #11
KoroKoro Thread Starter
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyoSaeba View Post
So who's gonna support it if it does blow up 3 times over 6 years? What will you do during those time? How long will it take for parts to be available? How long do you guarantee those parts being available for? Who's looking after all that?
Us by the looks. If anything dies, IT just buys another one from Dell. Plus we have spare towers to use if the new ones go down.

I wouldn't have thought consumer hardware would be hard to find 'unavailable'. Besides, its all coming from Dell anyway... so I doubt it would be any different from a procurement perspective.
KoroKoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2017, 4:58 PM   #12
zero_velocity
Member
 
zero_velocity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Gold Coast
Posts: 2,255
Default

All good and well to go for consumer grade gear for AutoDesk products, but once you cross that line of 'Unsupported Hardware' note that your Autodesk help line gets disconnected pretty damn fast.

Also Warranty. Build your own shit be ready to suffer the consequences when hardware fails.

My consultancy had half a dozen workstations now which were ~$5k per box for Autocad & Revit. When you consider the billable rates we are sold for, its a drop in the ocean for the business, but jesus, you stop people on an engineering salary stop being productive, well, you are basically throwing cash out the window (in the vicinity of $1600 - $2000 per person per day in lost potential income), so do the maths, we are guaranteed an operational PC by NBD on our plan I believe with our workstations.

So buy Dell or HP workstations and be done with it
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agg View Post
I genuinely don't think anything about you at all, nor do I think you are some huge problem on the forums, nor do I particularly care if you feel insulted.
zero_velocity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2017, 5:07 PM   #13
KoroKoro Thread Starter
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 10
Default

Elvis: When I say 'Boss', I mean my Engineering manager. He doesn't really care how much it costs. All he and I are concerned with is getting the job done. If the business wants to make profit through those means, thats fine but it doesn't really concern me.

All I'm concerned with is being stuck with an expensive machine that doesn't help me do my job any faster. The last thing I want is to have them nagging me to hurry up and to only have me complain about how slow my brand new $6000 computer is...

The one who signs the cheques doesn't even look at the hardware. All they do is see if thats what our team recommends then it gets rubber stamped. Obviously we don't want to recommend the wrong hardware for our application.
KoroKoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2017, 5:16 PM   #14
KoroKoro Thread Starter
New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 10
Default

Wont Dell guarantee this as an operational PC? I'm not suggesting we build our own machines from newegg or something.
http://www.dell.com/au/p/xps-8920-de...s-8920-desktop

I've worked in this industry for over 10 years now and we've never used workstation gear and we've never had a hardware failure. None of our hardware has ever been "Autodesk supported hardware" either.

From experience, if we've had errors with our models, 100% of the time it was user error. Never needed Autodesk support either.
KoroKoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th March 2017, 5:40 PM   #15
underskore
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: 3147
Posts: 4,074
Default

in 10 years of using consumer grade hardware how many times have you run into driver related issues? (just curious, not assuming anything)

what's the usage breakdown of inventor look like?
modelling/drawing/analysis/rendering

will you possibly be looking to software outside of the autodesk realm within the life of these computers?

Quote:
The last thing I want is to have them nagging me to hurry up and to only have me complain about how slow my brand new $6000 computer is...
what hardware do you have now? will going to high-end workstation class gear actually be a drop in speed for you or is that some hyperbole?

edit:
just found this comment from the guy who did those performance review videos you linked
Quote:
I'd never buy a Xeon for my home PC, but I'd always put a Xeon into an office workstation. Exactly the same applies to Quadros vs GeForce.
https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/inven...n/td-p/6641565

Last edited by underskore; 12th March 2017 at 5:51 PM.
underskore is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Sign up for a free OCAU account and this ad will go away!

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time now is 7:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
OCAU is not responsible for the content of individual messages posted by others.
Other content copyright Overclockers Australia.
OCAU is hosted by Micron21!