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Old 11th February 2008, 1:22 AM   #136
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Ok, think of it this way.

Imagine you want to play a game like UT, Counterstrike, Battlefield etc online.

Now let's say as a reward for playing 6 hours a day, you get a rapid fire, enemy seeking rocket launcher after 2 months of play.
If you play 8 hours a day for 4 months you get above rocket launcher and a shield that absorbs 50% of damage that enemies do.

Oh boy, that sure does sound like a great game to me, hurrah!

Sure, you should get rewards for putting more effort in, but it should never be a substitute for skill. Having an edge is one thing, but being able to just press one button and kill anyone who you come across is retarded, unless you're 12 I guess in which case it's awesome.


WAR is going to be a PvP (RvR) centric game, NOT PvE like WoW is. The "endgame" content in WAR will be primarily focussed around fighting other players, not farming the same dungeon 3 nights a week, 4 hours each time for 2 months.

If you want to play WoW, play WoW.

If you want a game that's actually fun and isn't just about poopsocking, don't play WoW.

Honestly, I don't see WAR taking away a large chunk of the WoW userbase because of the fact that it's going to be more of a skill oriented game than "no life = win game".

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Originally Posted by toad
Have they released any info on how the end game pve content will work in warhammer, or what the pvp reward system will be like yet?
There's not much info on endgame PvE, the primary focus is city sieges and keeps, which is PvP/RvR.
The reward system as far as I can tell will be in the form of titles and loot, most likely similar to the way the public quest loot systems work.

The way gear works in WAR is that it gives you an edge, but doesn't define your ability to be useful. Of course someone in greys vs someone in blues/purples will have a hard time, but it really isn't that hard to get decent gear.

To give you some basic ideas.
WAR is arranged in 4 tiers, each referring to a level range. You can get gear from the usual places, so mobs/quests etc, but you can also purchase gear with realm points which you get from PvP.
It's quite feasible to have a full set of very good gear purely from PvPing before you level out of the first tier.
So basically if you start the game, level up a bit then decide to do nothing other than PvP, you will not only level up off xp gain from kills, but be able to get better gear just from killing other people, and the gear you get from pvp will be good quality. You might find better items from quests or drops etc, but you don't need to do quests just to survive in PvP.

I can't really go into great detail, but I will say that so far it's a lot less of a dull grind than WoW's system is.

Last edited by Snufkin; 11th February 2008 at 1:32 AM.
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Old 11th February 2008, 7:49 AM   #137
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FPS does not equal MMO. And I know it's PvP oriented, but I'm saying that WoW does not anymore mean that you can't have a life and still have some good gear, whatever aspect of the game you play.

Snufkin, how does the class balance look? Are they quite varied in terms of abilities etc, or is it too early for you to tell (I assume you're in the beta)?
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Old 11th February 2008, 10:35 AM   #138
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Class balance is still being tested, hopefully it won't end up like WoW with class testing going on for years after release.

Each realm has 4 class types: Ranged dps, melee dps, tank and healer, so it's pretty balanced in that regard. There's a heck of a lot of variation though as the classes aren't just copies of each other.
Don't expect your action bars to look like they do in WoW in terms of clutter.

I can't really say a lot about individual aspects, the NDA is pretty strict.
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Old 11th February 2008, 1:45 PM   #139
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Class balance is still being tested, hopefully it won't end up like WoW with class testing going on for years after release.

Each realm has 4 class types: Ranged dps, melee dps, tank and healer, so it's pretty balanced in that regard. There's a heck of a lot of variation though as the classes aren't just copies of each other.
Don't expect your action bars to look like they do in WoW in terms of clutter.

I can't really say a lot about individual aspects, the NDA is pretty strict.
I prefer to think of class balance like this, if they do not have to vertically expand with each xpac, and only have to horizontally expand, then class balance will be a lot easier to achieve since the power increase from gear is nowhere close to the power increase from gaining levels (other than extreme examples, see blizzard devaluing stamina by 50% in the item budget).

The biggest thing I can't wait for is the lack of a stealth class, that alone will prevent the mom's basement no social life feckless dimwit fucktards from joining the game.
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Old 11th February 2008, 2:22 PM   #140
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Heh, I wish I could say more, seriously

I keep typing stuff then realising it's too much information.
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Old 11th February 2008, 4:02 PM   #141
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Heh, I wish I could say more, seriously

I keep typing stuff then realising it's too much information.
Its fun when you have about 10 friends (or at least people you talk to online) and you keep tricking them into statements that could get them thrown out of the beta.

Honestly its not that hard to extrapolate much of warhammer online from the available sources, from playing daoc, from watching the vids and knowing the universe.

And ever change that war introduces will be copied verbatim by wow in the xpack that they will release 4 months after war comes out. I guarantee it.

Any person with any interest in video game design, who has ever actually looked at video game middleware, can see how a game genre can improve dramatically in a few months once the competition is there. The current market is stagnated due to wow's subscription model where changes can take years to implement simply because the business model doesn't allow rapid change to take place (eg: I'm looking at blizzard statements about the priest disc tree, which they have said won't be looked until the xpack, has had a bandaid spell slapped on it and the lower half hasn't changed much since 1.13).

The approach to pvp in wow and war is the most interesting thing, in wow they approach pvp as a sidegame that has become their biggest focus as of late, simply because arena reduces the game to 10 person instanced combat with no npc's, they see it as the best way to avoid server lag.
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Old 11th February 2008, 5:20 PM   #142
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The reward system as far as I can tell will be in the form of titles and loot, most likely similar to the way the public quest loot systems work.
....
It's quite feasible to have a full set of very good gear purely from PvPing before you level out of the first tier.
I'd kinda hoped they'd keep the daoc model of buying abilities with realm points, instead of buying gear with the abilities on them.

I guess its a balance thing. But I kinda enjoyed the edge rvr players gained over the pve guys.
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Old 11th February 2008, 5:45 PM   #143
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Well from what they've hinted at in a few podcasts etc there might be the possibility of unlocking new talents etc through achievements in RvR etc.

Also, keep in mind that WAR is a PvP oriented game, the main focus is on PvP, not PvE, so people who want a new PvE game should most likely stick with WoW.
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Old 11th February 2008, 8:33 PM   #144
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Yeah, that's fair enough. I can understand where you guys are coming from. I just don't think you can argue with the way WoW has been developed and expanded based on your preference of casual play, however. It just irks me that people say Blizzard are ruining the game or that the new content is ridiculous when your standards of what's rewarding isn't in tune with a traditional style of MMO play that is being improved and expanded to suit a broader demographic. I know you're going to come back with similar arguments, but I'm trying to show a sort of midground between something like hardcore EQ-style play and something too casual. I mean, it'd be really disappointing if WO came out and everyone enjoyed playing it every so often, but it just didn't take off because it was too wishy-washy or there wasn't enough to do.
I understand what you're saying, and I'm not saying it should be so casual that theres not enough reward to maintain interest. What I am saying is there should, ideally, be rewards for both the hardcore no-lifers, -and- the people who are simply not physically able to sit and devote a huge amount of time to the game. Can there not be a happy medium? Why are so many no-lifers getting on their high horse and treating the workers/casual players with such disdain?

Oh and I have nothing against the style of game play that Blizzard jhas incorporated into WoW. I am a WoWer, or I was, and I treated it like a casual game and had fun anyway. I just didn't make it to the higher ranked players. It's fine for certain types of gamers, but other types are being ignored, which I think shouldn't be.
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Old 11th February 2008, 9:33 PM   #145
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Also, keep in mind that WAR is a PvP oriented game, the main focus is on PvP, not PvE, so people who want a new PvE game should most likely stick with WoW.
I still cannot grasp this type of comment
the same was said about GuildWars,and i never played an hour of PvP in two years
Warhammer's fanbase alone [me included]is enough to play just for takeing part
in the PvE experience ,even if it is to just relive that wonderfull intro movie from 'Dawn of War'
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Old 11th February 2008, 10:05 PM   #146
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I still cannot grasp this type of comment
the same was said about GuildWars,and i never played an hour of PvP in two years
Warhammer's fanbase alone [me included]is enough to play just for takeing part
in the PvE experience ,even if it is to just relive that wonderfull intro movie from 'Dawn of War'
Guild Wars was designed for both in mind, not just one or the other. WaR on the other hand will be a PvP Orientated with a PvE background.
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Old 11th February 2008, 10:40 PM   #147
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I still cannot grasp this type of comment
the same was said about GuildWars,and i never played an hour of PvP in two years
Warhammer's fanbase alone [me included]is enough to play just for takeing part
in the PvE experience ,even if it is to just relive that wonderfull intro movie from 'Dawn of War'
The only issue there is that DoW is 40k.
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Old 11th February 2008, 10:50 PM   #148
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Guild Wars was designed for both in mind, not just one or the other. WaR on the other hand will be a PvP Orientated with a PvE background.
Funny you say that. All the talk I remember of guildwars pre launch was that it was going to be 'pvp exclusive'.
Its pretty stupid not to put in pve content. I'd say a vast majority dont want a 100% pvp experiance, with a good majority spending a lot more time in pve than in pvp.
It would be very silly of mythic not have an end game raid game and I'd be surprised if its not there. To what extent pve end game is implemented and in what style is more the question.
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Old 11th February 2008, 11:09 PM   #149
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Its pretty stupid not to put in pve content. I'd say a vast majority dont want a 100% pvp experiance, with a good majority spending a lot more time in pve than in pvp.
I do see your point, but i don't get why people say 'It's stupid to not have PVE content', Why? If you don't like PVP then don't play a PVP based game, Stick to PVE MMO/RPG's.

And i can guarantee you demand for a PVP game will always supersede a PVE only game, Theres only so many times you can kill the same AI..
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Old 12th February 2008, 5:38 AM   #150
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I do see your point, but i don't get why people say 'It's stupid to not have PVE content', Why? If you don't like PVP then don't play a PVP based game, Stick to PVE MMO/RPG's.
Ignoring a majority of the player base dosnt make much business sense.
I'd take a guess at saying maybe 10% of players want a pvp only game. (that is no pve at all. you can pvp or pvp or for something different pvp). Even if you wanted to say 20% or 30% or even 50% of potential players want a pvp only game then you are still ignoring a majority of the the market.

Even if they threw in a fairly basic pve end game, it opens up the potential customer base to 100%. or maybe 90% if you think there are people out there who will refuse to put up with any pve content at all.

Youd have more demand for a pure pve game than a pure pvp game in my opinion. But in either case you'd be a lot better off providing a mix of the two.

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And i can guarantee you demand for a PVP 'only' game will always supersede a PVE only game, Theres only so many times you can kill the same AI..
Sounds more like a general computer game statement, than anything that could be said about the MMORPG genre.

Keep in mind that somebody who wants nothing to do with pve wouldnt have made it past lev10 in wow, let alone get to 60. Add to this that the pvp content in wow sucked until they put in the battlegrounds (which made in kinda decent). So none of the players from the first 12months or however long it took for battlegrounds to arrive, could be considered to be from the pvp only corner. (I use wow as the example because it is by far the most popular game and all the other MMOs put together are pretty insignificant when talking about potential customers)
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