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Old 7th May 2015, 12:48 PM   #61
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No they said they've delayed K12 to 2016 , to get Zen out the door first
Ah yeah, that's good news then. Bring on Zen, I'll probably switch
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Old 7th May 2015, 7:49 PM   #62
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I hope this is good, but I'm not going to get excited. I remember when everyone was saying "AMD is going to Bulldoze Sandy Bridge" and we all know how that went.
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Old 8th May 2015, 8:21 AM   #63
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I hope this is good, but I'm not going to get excited. I remember when everyone was saying "AMD is going to Bulldoze Sandy Bridge" and we all know how that went.
Yea but i think this time its different, i mean they've had 4 years to sort their sh!t out!
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Old 8th May 2015, 9:05 AM   #64
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I'll be buying a new Zen PC when they come out to replace my Sandy Bridge i7 2600, Even if its not as fast as what Intel has out at the time.
I really hated the fact the bulldozer was slower, used more power and generated more heat and was pretty much AMD's version of the intel Pentium 4 netburst
Nice to see AMD moving back to a more energy efficient short pipeline high IPC design like the Six-Core Phenom II X6's ...
The Phenom II X6 even on the old 45nm vs 32nm they still wiped the floor with AMDs bulldozer in gaming
Looking to spend big on this next upgrade. Cant wait.
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Old 8th May 2015, 9:23 AM   #65
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So... release dates Very keen to get this!
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Old 8th May 2015, 10:37 AM   #66
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So... release dates Very keen to get this!
2016 ish lol... I'm not holding my breath but hoping my current PC lasts another year
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Old 8th May 2015, 12:34 PM   #67
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I'll remain a little skeptical, the hype train can be strong with AMD, getting my hopes up, which will not happen a 3rd time.

If we were to normalize the clocks, whack on a 40% performance improvement to Piledriver... AMD is just beating Nehalem from 6-7 years ago, let alone the hex-core Nehalem chips...

That's not basing it on IPC though, just overall general performance, but there is a big performance delta between Nehalem and Haswell and AMD hasn't been able to soundly beat either yet.

I do hope I am wrong, I have multiple AMD and Intel rigs that need an overhaul, but only for the right price/performance.
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Old 8th May 2015, 1:06 PM   #68
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The 40% was meant to be over excavator cores so more like 55% over piledriver IPC. The question is more what clocks they will run at. At 55% it'd closer to sandy/ivy bridge performance, an 8 core will be pretty impressive on multi threaded applications.

Even at 40% the APU's become significantly more appealing for the lower end or htpc or console replacements.
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Old 8th May 2015, 1:08 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Seanay00 View Post
Yea but i think this time its different, i mean they've had 4 years to sort their sh!t out!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seanay00 View Post
Yea but i think this time its different, i mean they've had 4 years to sort their sh!t out!
it takes 4+yrs to develop any new architecture, so unfortunatly the case is no different.

The thing with bulldozer is it was such a huge depature from K7-K10. It doesn't even share much with its sister Bobcat uarch. Infact, they took Pref-etcher tech from Bobcat to improve Piledriver IPC.

This is why I'm hoping for, realistically.. an evolution from Jaguar, not a re-invented wheel.



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Originally Posted by Pemalite View Post
I'll remain a little skeptical, the hype train can be strong with AMD, getting my hopes up, which will not happen a 3rd time.

If we were to normalize the clocks, whack on a 40% performance improvement to Piledriver... AMD is just beating Nehalem from 6-7 years ago, let alone the hex-core Nehalem chips...

That's not basing it on IPC though, just overall general performance, but there is a big performance delta between Nehalem and Haswell and AMD hasn't been able to soundly beat either yet.

I do hope I am wrong, I have multiple AMD and Intel rigs that need an overhaul, but only for the right price/performance.

I'm not sure what you're basing your comparisons on, but the claims were strickly regarding IPC..

Is that single threaded IPC, or, multithreaded @ the same 'core count', I don't know. You would assme it would be former. 40% would bring it inline with Sandy bridge IPC levels. Not Nehalem.Looking strictly at single theaded performance.

Total throughput though is a completely different metric, and I don't think AMD are even hinting at that yet. They won't even have an idea until they can estimate performance/watt achievable on the new 14nm process.. that is what will limit core counts.

I think they threw the IPC estimates out there, as that's what draws the most critisim about bulldozer based CPUs. Like I said, I think we'll see a Frequency decrease from Streamroller, even on 14nm, as new process nodes aren't increasing Fmax anymore.. esp with finFET. Hence the need for a fatter uArch and a frequency hit. So I'd expect single threaded performance to go up less than 40%.


Even if a theoretical final high end product "only" had SB IPC / single threaded performance, but with 8 cores, and a sub 100W TDP, would it really matter?

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Old 9th May 2015, 1:43 AM   #70
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* Does some reading *



Interesting...AMD is finally turning back to their roots.

* AMD dumps CMT in favour of whole cores with SMT in Zen.
=> Goodbye Bulldozer architecture!

* Zen love in 2016...
This comes first! => Performance Desktop (FX series CPU)
This comes a little later in the same year => Server market (Opteron)

* Mainstream desktop/notebook (A-series APU) ?
=> No Zen love in 2016.
...AMD hints that (in the long term), APU will have High Bandwidth Memory (HBM). But its very likely to be a server-oriented product. Maybe for the supercomputing market?

* Zen will be on FinFET process.
=> AMD is vague on details...Samsung’s 14nm FinFET process? (GlobalFoundaries and Samsung have partnered up. GF has licensed Samsung's FinFET process).

* Release phase...
2016 => Zen
2017 => Zen+ (In the works)

* They're going to simplify x86 side down to two sockets.
=> Desktop = Socket AM4 (FX CPU and A-series APU)
=> Notebook = Socket FP4 (A-series APU)

* AMD's Cat cores are dead (Bobcat/Jaguar architecture)!
=> Replaced by low-power variants of Zen architecture in the form of future A-series APUs with more advanced power saving features.
=> Zen architecture covers ALL...Server to low-power solutions.

* All low-margin markets are to be ignored.
=> Low-end PC market (Bobcat/Jaguar-based platforms), Tablets/Smartphones, etc.
=> AMD doesn't want to be in the value-market any more. They want to make serious money again.
...Server chips have high-margins. This is why AMD wants to go back into server market with Zen. (Intel currently dominates this area when AMD dropped the ball. Grabbing 10% of this market as a 2nd source of x86-64 processors would certainly make AMD happy.)

* ARM side?
2015 => Opteron A1100 “Seattle”
2017 => K12
...K12 is pushed back by a year to allow AMD to focus on Zen architecture in 2016. Seattle is really an intro processor. To help establish a beach-head for AMD in certain parts of the server market. (Software infrastructure side).

* Project Skybridge is canceled. (Skybridge is a bridge to nowhere! LOL!)
=> AMD asked customers. Customers don't need a solution that allows them to swap ARM and x86 processors using the same infrastructure. Prefer to have separate product lines instead.


Essentially, AMD Board has wasted 4 years!

ie:

In 2011, AMD CEO Dirk Meyer was removed by AMD Board because he wanted AMD to get back to its roots. (Establish strong foundations via high performance Server and Enthusiast processors first, followed by notebook). AMD Board wanted tablets...Because everyone was suffering from "Tablet Fever" in CES 2011.

In 2015, AMD CEO Dr. Lisa Su pretty much lays out Meyer's roadmap with Zen architecture! And if you look through their slides? No tablets! (Or anything else that produces low margins. Tablet fever is cooling down very quickly as it is overcrowded.)


Here's something to think about when AMD says "40% more IPC".

=> Does this include SMT (2 threads per core) or pure single-core performance?

If Zen can hit within 10% of Skylake (single-core performance) and do it at a lower cost, they have a potential winner.

...Yeah, be happy that AMD is turning its ship around in 2016. But be skeptical until their product is reviewed, benched, and compared to its long time rival's products. (Intel's Skylake).
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Old 11th May 2015, 9:06 AM   #71
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So they really want that performance crown it seems, talk is cheap let's see what they can do.

AMD admits it can’t be “the cheaper solution,” will refocus on performance

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In recent years, AMD has been largely known as the budget chip company, the "value for money" choice when you can't stretch to an Intel i5 or i7. Even with GPUs, an area where the company has produced some excellent Nvidia-beating products over the years, AMD has recently had to compete on price rather than performance because of a rapidly ageing line-up.

Yesterday, at the AMD Financial Analyst Day event, the company finally decided that enough was enough: AMD will no longer be competing in a race to the bottom. "It's extraordinarily important to ensure that we have competitive, high-performance cores," said CEO Lisa Su. "We have reduced our low-end PC exposure. When you look at AMD's historical business, we were very, very heavily concentrated in consumer, low end PCs, that was actually our speciality. However, when you look at that market, there has been so much volatility, especially at the intersection between tablets and PCs and differentiation hasn't been there... very clearly, we are an x86 company. We have tremendous x86 heritage, and opportunity to lead in that area. We are absolutely going to invest in high-performance x86."
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Old 12th May 2015, 9:31 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stmok
...Yeah, be happy that AMD is turning its ship around in 2016. But be skeptical until their product is reviewed, benched, and compared to its long time rival's products. (Intel's Skylake).
yeah, I understand that they need to announce intentions for market and stock confidence, but you're right that we should let results to speak for them. They hyped up Bulldozer and implied a return-to-roots with the FX revival. We know how that turned out. But at least they appear to be barking up the right tree this time.
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Old 14th May 2015, 10:12 PM   #73
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I hope AMD come back and give us some choice, as its all Intel these days.

I remember everyone use to have AMD Athlons XP 2400+, instead of Pentium 4. Good days.

After that, E8400 killed it and beyond

I'll keep an eye out, I'm hoping they get more than 40% improvement, as they need to surpass Intel, not just get onto their level, to have any chance.
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Old 14th May 2015, 11:21 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by vid_ghost View Post
I'll be buying a new Zen PC when they come out to replace my Sandy Bridge i7 2600, Even if its not as fast as what Intel has out at the time.
I really hated the fact the bulldozer was slower, used more power and generated more heat and was pretty much AMD's version of the intel Pentium 4 netburst
Nice to see AMD moving back to a more energy efficient short pipeline high IPC design like the Six-Core Phenom II X6's ...
The Phenom II X6 even on the old 45nm vs 32nm they still wiped the floor with AMDs bulldozer in gaming
Looking to spend big on this next upgrade. Cant wait.

Tragically, although certainly slower, the chips were cheaper. Also they aren't that slow overall, their icp was awful, single / disk threaded games are the issue... So yeah, the big issue was that software, OS, and API. Programmers and Microsoft became lazy and were not ready for the Bulldozer design.
Now with Windows 10 and DirectX12, people with an old 2011 Bulldozer system may get a significant re-invigoration.
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Old 22nd May 2015, 8:47 PM   #75
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In the era of DirectX12 and Vulkan aka Mantle API design, does cpu power still matter?
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