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Old 7th June 2017, 4:34 PM   #76
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To be fair, the advantage Wacom has over the competition is their stylus. The new iPad Pro does look exciting with 6 core CPU and 120hz screen. The addition of the dock to iOS 11 is also good to see.
We tested a number of stylus/pen style devices in the office across a wide bunch of our staff (all Apple fans). Microsoft's Surface stylus beat Apple's "pencil" device for every single artist.

Wacom still leads the opinion polls, but I feel that has a lot to do with familiarity, as most staff have been using Wacoms (including Cintiq more recently) their entire careers.

Off topic, The Onion do a great job of summing up the feel of Apple's most recent efforts:
http://www.theonion.com/article/appl...no-ideas-33814
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Old 7th June 2017, 4:39 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by elvis View Post
We buy professional grade workstations several times per month that out-spec that, and are easily 30-50% cheaper.
No you don't - This is impossible like for like

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Originally Posted by elvis View Post
Oh, and they also come with on-site warranty. Because constantly sending our warehouse guy to the Apple Store to fix up busted Macs is getting boring. (And yeah, Macs fail as often as anything else. Don't kid yourself that they're made better when they use the same shitty Chinese parts that everyone else uses).
Why are you buying Macs without onsite support and complaining about it?

Last edited by [KEi]SoVeReIgN; 7th June 2017 at 4:43 PM.
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Old 7th June 2017, 5:00 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by elvis View Post
We tested a number of stylus/pen style devices in the office across a wide bunch of our staff (all Apple fans). Microsoft's Surface stylus beat Apple's "pencil" device for every single artist.

Wacom still leads the opinion polls, but I feel that has a lot to do with familiarity, as most staff have been using Wacoms (including Cintiq more recently) their entire careers.

Off topic, The Onion do a great job of summing up the feel of Apple's most recent efforts:
http://www.theonion.com/article/appl...no-ideas-33814
Super surprised by that. The pencil on iPad is objectively better. Faster sample rate and more precise and doesn't have the stepping issue that the surface pen has on slow strokes.
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Old 7th June 2017, 5:00 PM   #79
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Because constantly sending our warehouse guy to the Apple Store to fix up busted Macs is getting boring.
Why isn't your company using Applecare's on-site service?
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Old 7th June 2017, 5:05 PM   #80
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No you don't - This is impossible like for like
HP and Supermicro boards, Xeon CPUs, Nvidia 1080 graphics. Piece of cake to get the prices we want with the on-site service, and the performance today is on par with what Apple are promising in 6 months.

Conversely, if we laid down US $5K for a workstation (AUD $6622 at today's exchange rate), we'd expecta lot more than what the iMac Pro has to offer, and that's TODAY. By December, I'd expect more again.

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Originally Posted by [KEi]SoVeReIgN View Post
Why are you buying Macs without onsite support and complaining about it?
In short: history. We've been a Mac shop for a long time. That used to be awesome. Today it's crap.

It didn't become crap overnight. It was a slow process, and one that is very difficult to pinpoint exactly where it switched from benefit to detriment. "Boiling the frog", as the metaphor goes.

Apple has never offered good service for business. Traditionally we went with independent third parties (Next Byte, etc), but Apple killed all of those off with the Apple Stores. Like most things Apple, they're designed for low end consumers, not professional grade business. And that's perfectly fine for consumers in that market. I still recommend Apple products to my family members, because they're simple, consumer focused, and concentrate on the individual as standalone products, and not the workgroup or business with hefty infrastructure investements in place like other products.

Like the "Macbook Pro" thread, these discussions basically boil down to people with individual/consumer needs arguing that the "Pro" label is fine against a bunch of professional users arguing it isn't. At scale, in business, Apple is quite terrible at satisfying the professional market.

So again, we keep buying them because once upon a time it wasn't so terrible, and the gradual reduction in quality of products and service wasn't rapid enough for anyone to notice straight away. Now we objectively look back year on year, and realise that it's pretty shit right now.

Why do we complain about it and not just jump ship? Because it did actually once not suck, and we'd genuinely like it to return to that state again. Apple have loads of cash, and the ability to make great products for business. All of their top designers, marketing people and business types are focused entirely on the consumer market. All it would take is for Apple to assign a position whose very purpose was the real world professional business market, and they could utterly dominate it with quality products and outstanding service.

The complaining thus far appears to have worked. Apple did a massive mea culpa when they announced the new Mac Pro, saying point blank that they'd failed the pro market with the non-modular trashcan design and the lack of revisions of their high-end gear. It's clear the iMac Pro is a stopgap between now and then, but again, it's 5 months out and double the price of what an equivalent PC workstation would cost, and presents fewer options when it comes to being able to plug industry-standard stuff we use into them (yes, PCI-E card form-factor is still a thing, and is not going away even if Apple say so).

Right here, right now, Apple products are great - nay, AMAZING - for your grandma on Facebook, teenage girls on Snapchat, or noodling around in your basement on Garage Band. Perfectly valid markets that are super profitable. But this thread is about the professional industries, their specific needs, and whether or not Apple's "Pro" flagship products are worth it for them.
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Old 7th June 2017, 5:12 PM   #81
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Super surprised by that. The pencil on iPad is objectively better. Faster sample rate and more precise and doesn't have the stepping issue that the surface pen has on slow strokes.
Are you talking about the first Surface Pen or the latest one? Because the latest one beats out the pencil...

- longer battery life
- better sensitivity
- interchangeable tips for better design features

(We can't judge with the new Apple Pencil until it's available, but so far its only slightly faster, the new pencil is 20ms response time vs surface pen being 21ms, but in every other known regard the surface pen is better)
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Old 7th June 2017, 5:18 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Elyzion View Post
Are you talking about the first Surface Pen or the latest one? Because the latest one beats out the pencil...

- longer battery life
- better sensitivity
- interchangeable tips for better design features

(We can't judge with the new Apple Pencil until it's available, but so far its only slightly faster, the new pencil is 20ms response time vs surface pen being 21ms, but in every other known regard the surface pen is better)
I have a Surface Pro 4, so comparing with that.
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Old 7th June 2017, 5:20 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by giles666 View Post
I have a Surface Pro 4, so comparing with that.
So your bias view means the pencil better, despite the entire internet saying the current surface pen being better then the pencil...

OK!
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next time you see a dog, go up close to it and say loudly with furious anger 'ENGLISH MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK IT'
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Old 7th June 2017, 5:24 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by elvis View Post
HP and Supermicro boards, Xeon CPUs, Nvidia 1080 graphics. Piece of cake to get the prices we want with the on-site service, and the performance today is on par with what Apple are promising in 6 months.

Conversely, if we laid down US $5K for a workstation (AUD $6622 at today's exchange rate), we'd expecta lot more than what the iMac Pro has to offer, and that's TODAY. By December, I'd expect more again.


In short: history. We've been a Mac shop for a long time. That used to be awesome. Today it's crap.

It didn't become crap overnight. It was a slow process, and one that is very difficult to pinpoint exactly where it switched from benefit to detriment. "Boiling the frog", as the metaphor goes.

Apple has never offered good service for business. Traditionally we went with independent third parties (Next Byte, etc), but Apple killed all of those off with the Apple Stores. Like most things Apple, they're designed for low end consumers, not professional grade business. And that's perfectly fine for consumers in that market. I still recommend Apple products to my family members, because they're simple, consumer focused, and concentrate on the individual as standalone products, and not the workgroup or business with hefty infrastructure investements in place like other products.

Like the "Macbook Pro" thread, these discussions basically boil down to people with individual/consumer needs arguing that the "Pro" label is fine against a bunch of professional users arguing it isn't. At scale, in business, Apple is quite terrible at satisfying the professional market.

So again, we keep buying them because once upon a time it wasn't so terrible, and the gradual reduction in quality of products and service wasn't rapid enough for anyone to notice straight away. Now we objectively look back year on year, and realise that it's pretty shit right now.

Why do we complain about it and not just jump ship? Because it did actually once not suck, and we'd genuinely like it to return to that state again. Apple have loads of cash, and the ability to make great products for business. All of their top designers, marketing people and business types are focused entirely on the consumer market. All it would take is for Apple to assign a position whose very purpose was the real world professional business market, and they could utterly dominate it with quality products and outstanding service.

The complaining thus far appears to have worked. Apple did a massive mea culpa when they announced the new Mac Pro, saying point blank that they'd failed the pro market with the non-modular trashcan design and the lack of revisions of their high-end gear. It's clear the iMac Pro is a stopgap between now and then, but again, it's 5 months out and double the price of what an equivalent PC workstation would cost, and presents fewer options when it comes to being able to plug industry-standard stuff we use into them (yes, PCI-E card form-factor is still a thing, and is not going away even if Apple say so).

Right here, right now, Apple products are great - nay, AMAZING - for your grandma on Facebook, teenage girls on Snapchat, or noodling around in your basement on Garage Band. Perfectly valid markets that are super profitable. But this thread is about the professional industries, their specific needs, and whether or not Apple's "Pro" flagship products are worth it for them.
We have been over this, but, not every 'Pro' is in graphics and video. Apple's Pro products are professional tools.

They might not suit your business, but they work just great for millions of professional app developers, photographers, artists, game developers, etc...

Your constantly typifying Apple products as only good for Facebook makes you look ridiculous.
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Old 7th June 2017, 5:26 PM   #85
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So your bias view means the pencil better, despite the entire internet saying the current surface pen being better then the pencil...

OK!
The entire internet, really? It isn't hard to find plenty of people that prefer iPad + Pencil to Surface + Surface Pen.

I have and use both. In my opinion the pencil feels better to draw and take notes with.
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Old 7th June 2017, 5:27 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by elvis View Post
HP and Supermicro boards, Xeon CPUs, Nvidia 1080 graphics. Piece of cake to get the prices we want with the on-site service, and the performance today is on par with what Apple are promising in 6 months.

Conversely, if we laid down US $5K for a workstation (AUD $6622 at today's exchange rate), we'd expecta lot more than what the iMac Pro has to offer, and that's TODAY. By December, I'd expect more again.


In short: history. We've been a Mac shop for a long time. That used to be awesome. Today it's crap.

It didn't become crap overnight. It was a slow process, and one that is very difficult to pinpoint exactly where it switched from benefit to detriment. "Boiling the frog", as the metaphor goes.

Apple has never offered good service for business. Traditionally we went with independent third parties (Next Byte, etc), but Apple killed all of those off with the Apple Stores. Like most things Apple, they're designed for low end consumers, not professional grade business. And that's perfectly fine for consumers in that market. I still recommend Apple products to my family members, because they're simple, consumer focused, and concentrate on the individual as standalone products, and not the workgroup or business with hefty infrastructure investements in place like other products.

Like the "Macbook Pro" thread, these discussions basically boil down to people with individual/consumer needs arguing that the "Pro" label is fine against a bunch of professional users arguing it isn't. At scale, in business, Apple is quite terrible at satisfying the professional market.

So again, we keep buying them because once upon a time it wasn't so terrible, and the gradual reduction in quality of products and service wasn't rapid enough for anyone to notice straight away. Now we objectively look back year on year, and realise that it's pretty shit right now.

Why do we complain about it and not just jump ship? Because it did actually once not suck, and we'd genuinely like it to return to that state again. Apple have loads of cash, and the ability to make great products for business. All of their top designers, marketing people and business types are focused entirely on the consumer market. All it would take is for Apple to assign a position whose very purpose was the real world professional business market, and they could utterly dominate it with quality products and outstanding service.

The complaining thus far appears to have worked. Apple did a massive mea culpa when they announced the new Mac Pro, saying point blank that they'd failed the pro market with the non-modular trashcan design and the lack of revisions of their high-end gear. It's clear the iMac Pro is a stopgap between now and then, but again, it's 5 months out and double the price of what an equivalent PC workstation would cost, and presents fewer options when it comes to being able to plug industry-standard stuff we use into them (yes, PCI-E card form-factor is still a thing, and is not going away even if Apple say so).

Right here, right now, Apple products are great - nay, AMAZING - for your grandma on Facebook, teenage girls on Snapchat, or noodling around in your basement on Garage Band. Perfectly valid markets that are super profitable. But this thread is about the professional industries, their specific needs, and whether or not Apple's "Pro" flagship products are worth it for them.
You missed my point - You could be buying them with Applecare for Enterprise, which is onsite support.

In the past you could also have negotiated with a reseller to add onsite support too, we were doing that years before Applecare for enterprise existed, including advanced replacement - However I agree basically all the resellers were/are garbage


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Originally Posted by elvis View Post
HP and Supermicro boards, Xeon CPUs, Nvidia 1080 graphics. Piece of cake to get the prices we want with the on-site service, and the performance today is on par with what Apple are promising in 6 months.

Conversely, if we laid down US $5K for a workstation (AUD $6622 at today's exchange rate), we'd expecta lot more than what the iMac Pro has to offer, and that's TODAY. By December, I'd expect more again.
No you can't - Show me a quote. Make sure it includes an equivalent monitor etc

I've done a similar like for like comparison repeatedly, back when a company I worked for was buying Mac Pro towers and Zxxx HPs.
Doesn't mean you want everything in the Mac bundle, but at least make the comparison fair.
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Old 7th June 2017, 5:33 PM   #87
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Fair points, elvis.

I'm a digital producer/multimedia designer myself and I'm in a similar situation where I'm really considering whether to ditch Apple for workstation use completely. I'm platform agnostic and only really have a personal preference to macOS due to history and past experience. Perfectly happy to work in Windows though.

Holy crap, 28k posts! I've mostly been lurking on here since 2003, although I'm mostly on Whingepool.

Last edited by telefragd; 7th June 2017 at 6:00 PM.
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Old 7th June 2017, 5:56 PM   #88
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The pencil on iPad is objectively better.
We discussed back in the Macbook Pro thread about you confusing "objective" and "subjective". Do we need to go through this again?

You are entitled to your opinion. But you can't claim objectivity based on something that's not quantifiable measurable outside of personal preference.

If you're confused, compare to my post where I asked our creative staff for their collective opinions to gauge preferences across our business. i.e.: all *subjective* feedback.

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Originally Posted by [KEi]SoVeReIgN View Post
You could be buying them with Applecare for Enterprise, which is onsite support.
We're already reeling from Apple pricing now. Their enterprise support is not only terrible, but pushes their cost even further out of the realistic spectrum.

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Originally Posted by [KEi]SoVeReIgN View Post
No you can't - Show me a quote. Make sure it includes an equivalent monitor etc

I've done a similar like for like comparison repeatedly, back when a company I worked for was buying Mac Pro towers and Zxxx HPs.
Doesn't mean you want everything in the Mac bundle, but at least make the comparison fair.
I won't be sharing our company quotes with you, sorry (quite bluntly stated in my employment contract). But our HP pricing has dropped substantially in the last 6 months - to the point where they're even competitive with our previous Supermicro vendors who used to be substantially cheaper.

I don't know what happened inside HP, but something's scared them, and they've started to try a lot harder on their pricing then I've ever seen in my career. Good news for us.

Last edited by elvis; 7th June 2017 at 6:09 PM.
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Old 7th June 2017, 6:30 PM   #89
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We have been over this, but, not every 'Pro' is in graphics and video. Apple's Pro products are professional tools.

They might not suit your business, but they work just great for millions of professional app developers, photographers, artists, game developers, etc...
Re-read the Tech Crunch article in the first post. Apple Senior Vice President of Worldwide Marketing Phil Schiller, says:

"And if we’ve had a pause in upgrades and updates on that, we’re sorry for that — what happened with the Mac Pro, and we’re going to come out with something great to replace it. And that’s our intention".

Apple Senior Vice President of Software Engineering, Craig Federighi, says:

"I think it’s not entirely unreasonable and it’s understandable that some people who love their Macs so much and see something new that Apple is talking about in the form of iPad, creating in some of them a sense of insecurity: ‘What does this mean? There’s a thing I really care about, I don’t want to see it go away, I see this other new thing on the scene, what does this mean to me, what does this mean to the product I love?’ So I understand how that would come out in the form of concern that this is happening"

Two very senior Apple staff admit that they've missed the mark with a core customer group. One went as far as to say the phrase "we're sorry". To see a person within the Apple senior circle publicly apologise for an entire product line is enormous.

In fact, just for interest's sake, I Googled "Apple apologise". Many talk pieces from many major news and tech publications (many of them very pro-Apple) commenting on exactly how unusual it is for Apple to make an apology to their customer base.

So sure, an iOS games dev or a web dev or a photographer can use any current Mac. In fact, most of them can (and do) still use a 2011/2013 model Mac. But that's not who Apple's senior VPs are apologising to. And that's not who are the subject of this thread. There are plenty of other threads on OCAU discussion low-to-mid range computing requirements. I'm not interested in those, which is why I started this specific thread for this specific topic. But by all means, please do continue thread crapping about things that aren't relevant to the topic at hand.

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Originally Posted by giles666 View Post
Your constantly typifying Apple products as only good for Facebook makes you look ridiculous.
I definitely didn't say it was "only" good for Facebook. I'm pretty sure I mentioned the words "Garage Band" in there too. But hey, if you want to go out of your way to get offended, I won't stop you. But that doesn't give you any power, nor reinforce your arguments as valid.
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Old 7th June 2017, 7:03 PM   #90
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Your constantly typifying Apple products as only good for Facebook makes you look ridiculous.
But one of your primary criteria for selecting any Apple product being its visual value as a desk ornament makes you look completely objective and sane.
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