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Old 19th May 2017, 4:13 PM   #23251
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honestly I'm still pretty hurt about the fact that Hybrid is cancer. So many caveats and weirdness - even 2016 to ExOn.
How about that calendar sharing between onprem and offprem mailboxes... so good
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Old 19th May 2017, 4:16 PM   #23252
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How about that calendar sharing between onprem and offprem mailboxes... so good
here use this hack that might work, until it doesn't.
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Old 19th May 2017, 6:06 PM   #23253
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Total job "shouldn't take more than 2 days"
.....
Sweet you seem to have a complete handle on all the intricacies and pitfalls, I'll let you take that job!

Same when someone says that's a 5 minute job... then it just became your job!

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Am I missing something, surely you've outsourced this banal problem to some company that does email better than we could ever hope to do internally?

#ShitpostFriday
Automated that shit 7 years ago, manual builds are so 10 years ago!

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Old 19th May 2017, 6:54 PM   #23254
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I can understand why people outsource email, but never understood why people were so eager to. One of the least demanding systems to manage, and most of the work (helpdesk calls) don't go away regardless.
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Old 19th May 2017, 7:07 PM   #23255
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I can understand why people outsource email, but never understood why people were so eager to. One of the least demanding systems to manage, and most of the work (helpdesk calls) don't go away regardless.
Because the Opex bucket is easy to take money out of, but the Capex bucket is always empty.

$X/user/month is easier to get budget for than $X000 up front.
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Old 19th May 2017, 7:07 PM   #23256
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I can understand why people outsource email, but never understood why people were so eager to. One of the least demanding systems to manage, and most of the work (helpdesk calls) don't go away regardless.
From what i've seen - its because a shit ton of people have implemented Exchange poorly and/or have inherited systems implemented poorly. Honestly, I've come across 2 deployments out of probably 100+ that I would say "hey, someone did this right, and all it needs is a certificate now and then or a patch".

Like a lot of MS stuff - it will largely just work, even if you're an absolute retard - but it becomes troublesome and painful to manage/operate.

Removing the design and implementation of the infrastructure side of Email is an obvious advantage if you're struggling because your core infrastructure was junk - hence its attraction.

However If you don't have those problems thrust upon you - I firmly believe (and have experience with) that it is administratively more cumbersome to manage O365/G-Suite than it is to manage a well tuned Exchange 2010 onwards deployment.

Depending on when you got on board with 365/Google Apps, I'd argue that 2003 was still easier if you were kicking those tyres with the cloud behemoths in the early early days.
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Old 19th May 2017, 8:26 PM   #23257
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Problem is, people that don't understand technology and just think "can't you just move this to there and it'll all work", without realising just how much is involved.
That's what the T part stands for in IT, and why I've got a Job.

If I'm not making it clear what the risks are with, and offering alternatives to, ideas proposed by those above and around me, I might as well not be there.
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Old 19th May 2017, 9:02 PM   #23258
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Tried twisting the O365 arm and got "too expensive, lets do when we downsize" (~ < 6 months).... and today "why aren't we going O365".
And?
What did you tell them?
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Old 20th May 2017, 12:37 PM   #23259
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I can understand why people outsource email, but never understood why people were so eager to. One of the least demanding systems to manage, and most of the work (helpdesk calls) don't go away regardless.
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From what i've seen - its because a shit ton of people have implemented Exchange poorly and/or have inherited systems implemented poorly.
Nah, you're both missing the bigger picture.

As someone else here said a while back (might have been PabloEscobar, might have been someone else, can't remember), "email" isn't just "email" any more. What folks actually mean is "GroupWare".

"Exchange" isn't enough any more. Email is not the one and only way we collaborate and communicate. What we want now are tightly integrated systems of information sharing. If you don't have an integrated email, calendar, IM, voice/video/online-meeting, document/spreadsheet, knowledgebase, wiki, support portal, etc, etc system, then you're already behind.

Is "Exchange" non-demanding to manage? Sure. Is Exchange + Lync/Skype + SharePoint + Office + a bunch of other shit? Now you're starting to get into a world of high effort, high cost rollouts.

And this is where Microsoft missed the ball (initially, they're catching up now finally). Microsoft won the day in a pre-internet world *precisely because* of integration. They had a bunch of products that were quite frankly pretty average by themselves, but the sheer attraction was the end-to-end integration between all their stuff. Then this thing called the Internet happened, and Microsoft's model fell apart.

You've got that old model: "Buy version X of 5 different major products, integrate them, wait 2-3 years, version X+1 is released, wait for it to be tested and patched to SP1 and ready, buy it all again at huge dollar cost, upgrade your shit at huge I.T effort and dollar cost, and do it all again in 3 years". Suddenly there's a new model: "Pay a monthly subscription, have someone else constantly upgrade little tiny pieces of it as you go". Ask yourself - what version of GMail is out right now? Answer: who the fuck cares, it's always the latest. Is it a bit devops/#yolo? Sure, but that's what we demand these days. Today's release is tomorrow's legacy.

That last point is ludicrously important for me. I've got fuck-all spare staff and spare hours to throw at upgrades. I've got a metric shitload of other business problems that aren't generic, that literally no other company on Earth can do for me, that I need very my very industry-specific crew working on full time without distraction. I can't throw them at periodic upgrades. Worse, massive upgrades aren't just technical problems. They're people problems. Adapting folks to change is exhausting, and requires far more skill than just upgrading a software release. I can't think of software as "current here and now" any more. Everything I install, I need to think about what will happen when it's legacy. Jesus, look at the NHS and what happened to them, stuck on WindowsXP. Nightmare stuff.

Why do *I* outsource email? For the reasons above. First, it's not just email. It's a suite of stuff (we use 20 odd different, fully integrated Google tools in production, with lots more available to us). And it's upgraded for us constantly in small increments that don't shock our user base. Along with that is a constant, silent infrastructure upgrade to go with it. Our industry needs to invest every single dollar spent on hardware it can into render power. Unlike most reading this, we are constantly waiting for faster hardware to appear. For most, some 50+ core, 128GB+ RAM box is total overkill for what they need to do. For us, it could easily be 10 times faster and still not be fast enough. With that in mind, I don't want to be worrying about hardware for my auxiliary services. The fact that every now and then Google email me and go "oh hey, we just upgraded all your users to an extra 5GB of storage each, don't stress about it" means I know they'll take care of those constant micro upgrades in hardware as well as software.

(And I say "Google" in all of the above because that's what we went with - Office365 with the full suite of tools is just as competent, but was 3 years too late and too expensive for our business. However it is a good fit for many places today, and IMHO an upgrade to Exchange for all the reasons I outline in this post).

If it was literally *just* email, I'd still have my trusty Dovecot server running. But those days are long gone.
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Old 20th May 2017, 2:44 PM   #23260
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Originally Posted by NSanity View Post
From what i've seen - its because a shit ton of people have implemented Exchange poorly and/or have inherited systems implemented poorly. Honestly, I've come across 2 deployments out of probably 100+ that I would say "hey, someone did this right, and all it needs is a certificate now and then or a patch".

Like a lot of MS stuff - it will largely just work, even if you're an absolute retard - but it becomes troublesome and painful to manage/operate.

Removing the design and implementation of the infrastructure side of Email is an obvious advantage if you're struggling because your core infrastructure was junk - hence its attraction.

However If you don't have those problems thrust upon you - I firmly believe (and have experience with) that it is administratively more cumbersome to manage O365/G-Suite than it is to manage a well tuned Exchange 2010 onwards deployment.

Depending on when you got on board with 365/Google Apps, I'd argue that 2003 was still easier if you were kicking those tyres with the cloud behemoths in the early early days.
Are you factoring in hardware/storage/hypervisor/network/rack/power/cooling + redundancy and patching/upgrade and integration-into-XYZ work?
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Old 20th May 2017, 4:52 PM   #23261
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I can understand why people outsource email, but never understood why people were so eager to. One of the least demanding systems to manage, and most of the work (helpdesk calls) don't go away regardless.
Because it lowers the support calls further The calls do go away and on the rare occasions where there are issues with O365 / GApps... they're fixed far quicker than most Exchange failures.

End result is more time working on IT rather than working around shitty limitations and corner cases which take days to diagnose.

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Originally Posted by NSanity View Post
From what i've seen - its because a shit ton of people have implemented Exchange poorly and/or have inherited systems implemented poorly. Honestly, I've come across 2 deployments out of probably 100+ that I would say "hey, someone did this right, and all it needs is a certificate now and then or a patch".
I sell services purely based on the fact that MSP's are so good (read: days of downtime) at running Exchange in small offices. You'd hate to know how badly many of them are configured and how bad some of the systems really are. I still see Server 2003 with Exchange 2007 in active service, how they're missed is beyond me.

What's more, many of them quote many thousands to migrate to O365 for sub-10 mailboxes to ensure it's "too expensive" to move away. Even CBB's system could be migrated within a week, it's such trivial work with the right tools. So many cowboys out there unfortunately, if you've seen Exchange deployed and well maintained then you'd be in the minority.
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Old 20th May 2017, 5:02 PM   #23262
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I sell services purely based on the fact that MSP's are so good (read: days of downtime) at running Exchange in small offices. You'd hate to know how badly many of them are configured and how bad some of the systems really are. I still see Server 2003 with Exchange 2007 in active service, how they're missed is beyond me.

What's more, many of them quote many thousands to migrate to O365 for sub-10 mailboxes to ensure it's "too expensive" to move away. Even CBB's system could be migrated within a week, it's such trivial work with the right tools. So many cowboys out there unfortunately, if you've seen Exchange deployed and well maintained then you'd be in the minority.
There's a bit of survivors bias there... You don't see the well managed Exchange organisations, because they aren't the as likely to meed your services. ("If its not broken, don't fix it")

My 4 Box Exchange 2013 setup has better uptime than Exchange Online .
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Old 20th May 2017, 6:07 PM   #23263
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There's a bit of survivors bias there
Perhaps, but you could also factor that in to yet another reason why out-sourcing to a large vendor like Google is popular. At least with Google the customer experience is identical across the entire customer base, and the minefield of trying to find a non-cowboy vendor is removed all together.

When we looked at options to dump our internal Exchange infrastructure, we did the due diligence and looked at local support, including hosted Exchange. What was blatantly obvious was that it was nigh impossible to find one that came with 100% consistently rated services, with a wide diversity of opinion on local vendors, large and small.

Google's uptime and track record is very public. It's not perfect, but it's out there for everyone to see, and you know you're getting identical service to everyone else no matter how large or small they are (important for SMBs, who always get shafted for the bigger customers when shit goes bad).

But again, that's just one part of the picture. The "email needs to be much more than email" argument above stands as the biggest reason I see people jumping across, along with the "constantly and silently upgrading and expanding features in the background" factor. We literally get extra features appearing in the list of stuff we get for the same price all the time. For example, we spent a while considering an expensive MDM. Out of the blue, Google gives it to us for free for the same price. Expensive upgrade project goes away, and we get an extra tick in our list of compliance items for zero business cost or IT effort.

The counter argument, of course, is if you don't need constant upgrades. But given that I work in an industry that's all about communication and is chasing the latest and greatest at every turn, it suits our business model to a tee.
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Old 20th May 2017, 6:18 PM   #23264
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My 4 Box Exchange 2013 setup has better uptime than Exchange Online .
That maybe so, we sort of found that our Exchange 2010 seemed to have less issues in the beginning, though things have seemed to settled down for us in Exchange Online land. We know part of the pain is from Microsoft constantly releasing new features and changing the back end, but that's exactly why people make the hop. Businesses are willing to have a little disruption in being able to deliver new tools faster. Exchange Online has worlds better compliance features and so easy manage compared to managing the same thing on-prem.
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Old 20th May 2017, 7:14 PM   #23265
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But again, that's just one part of the picture. The "email needs to be much more than email" argument above stands as the biggest reason I see people jumping across, along with the "constantly and silently upgrading and expanding features in the background" factor. We literally get extra features appearing in the list of stuff we get for the same price all the time. For example, we spent a while considering an expensive MDM. Out of the blue, Google gives it to us for free for the same price. Expensive upgrade project goes away, and we get an extra tick in our list of compliance items for zero business cost or IT effort.
The Cloud giveth, and the cloud taketh away.

I've not had any experience with Googles business offerings, but I am still bitter about the discontinuation of Reader. If they add a feature, and you invest heavily in it, and then they remove it... your investment goes with it.

I've got a clearly defined lifecycle for my Microsoft stack that I can use for future planning. Do google offer something similar for their products? or are they still calling everything "beta" so they don't need to support it.
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