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Old 9th October 2015, 7:21 PM   #121
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Currently still using a 1055T, I think thuban was the last good cpu's amd made for the average consumer. Everything else after has been trash. I am in the process of saving up for a skylake/kabylake build next year. Unless amd can back up their claims then im switching over to intel.

But, hopefully amd doesn't flop again and go under because if they do the market will be dominated by intel/nvidia and with no competition the prices will be ridiculous.
If AMD perform equal to or better, then everyone will be happy.

If AMD perform 5% lower, I can accept that and would buy if the price is 10-20% less

I wouldn't mind swapping, simply to keep them going, as I don't want an Intel only choice.

Bang for buck, as well as being better or close to Intel will be the key I guess.
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Old 9th October 2015, 7:23 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by TRG.dOinK View Post
If AMD perform equal to or better, then everyone will be happy.

If AMD perform 5% lower, I can accept that and would buy if the price is 10-20% less

I wouldn't mind swapping, simply to keep them going, as I don't want an Intel only choice.

Bang for buck, as well as being better or close to Intel will be the key I guess.
If they have IPC in the ballpark of Sandy-Bridge or Haswell, and have 8 cores, for <$500, that would be a very good thing.
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Old 9th October 2015, 8:40 PM   #123
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If they have IPC in the ballpark of Sandy-Bridge or Haswell, and have 8 cores, for <$500, that would be a very good thing.
I'm not sold on having more than 4 cores, because usually games/software are not programmed to utilize them.
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Old 9th October 2015, 11:17 PM   #124
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But, hopefully amd doesn't flop again and go under because if they do the market will be dominated by intel/nvidia and with no competition the prices will be ridiculous.
i dont think the prices would change, more the rate at which we see new products would change and the differences between each generation would be smaller
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Old 9th October 2015, 11:44 PM   #125
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I'm not sold on having more than 4 cores, because usually games/software are not programmed to utilize them.
As far as games go, that is likely to change with DirectX 12 / Vulkan.
As far as software goes, it really depends on the kind of software you're talking about.

The software that average every day people use (browsers, email clients) aren't exactly CPU intensive to begin with most of the time.

Software that actually is CPU intensive often is designed for multithreading.

One of the things I use my 5960X for is encoding blu-ray movies using x264 down to a much smaller file size while maintaining quality. And it also has good single threaded performance, currently running at 4.3GHz.
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Old 9th October 2015, 11:56 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post
As far as games go, that is likely to change with DirectX 12 / Vulkan.
As far as software goes, it really depends on the kind of software you're talking about.

The software that average every day people use (browsers, email clients) aren't exactly CPU intensive to begin with most of the time.

Software that actually is CPU intensive often is designed for multithreading.
This pretty much sums it up.

It's only current games where raw performance @ lower thread counts actually makes a noticable difference. This will hopefully change.. Not hopefully for Zen's sake, but hopefully for the fact it's far more effiecent way of doing things. and is the only way foward
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Old 10th October 2015, 12:23 PM   #127
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It would be near impossible for Intel to quickly catch-up on single-thread performance with AMD should Zen turn out to be a big single-thread surprise.. It would require Intel developing an entirely new architecture.

On the other hand, in a multi-core battle Intel already has existing massively multi-cored chip in production (Xeon 18-cores, etc). If AMD caught Intel short in overall computation performance, then Intel would simply turn to its manufacturing prowess and switch production to large-die chips. And then do a price war using those chips and X99 motherboards.

When AMD introduced the Athlon 64 X2, the first multi-core processor.. it was a native design with both cores in single die. To quickly respond, Intel produced the Pentium D with 2 dies in a single processor package. It ate up a lot of manufacturing capacity.. and uses a lot of power. Whatever it takes though and it proved reasonable effective at defending marketshare.

So yeah, realistically AMD could not possibly win a multi-core battle. Single thread or power efficiency in my opinion is the key. Particularly power efficiency since it would allow AMD to actually compete in the ultrabook/tablet sector.. and maybe even smartphones if Zen ended up an insanely scalable chip
It could win the battle in a given price point, of not for the fact Intel would rather cut profit margins than be under-cut price wise.

14nm is expensive. And one thing AMD have had going for them, is density. (and they're still making gains in this department)

Take AMD's Jaguar and Intel's Silvermont for example (since they're at least somewhat comparable). Despite the former being a Wider, Higher performance core, on 28nm, it's barely any bigger than a 22nm Silvermont.

Zen being a leaner uarch than Skylake, on the same process node, we could be looking at a significant mm2 /core advantage which may make the 8 core CPU cheap enough to enable a competitive price strategy.

All in theory of course
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Old 10th October 2015, 8:29 PM   #128
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This pretty much sums it up.

It's only current games where raw performance @ lower thread counts actually makes a noticable difference. This will hopefully change.. Not hopefully for Zen's sake, but hopefully for the fact it's far more effiecent way of doing things. and is the only way foward
I can understand that, but games generally get developed across all platforms, that means 'consoles', and I doubt they have more than 4 cores? (I have no idea, but I assume they don't considering the cost of the console).

So I'd doubt software developers would be programming games to use more than that, unless they are PC only, which I doubt, as everyone is greedy these days :P
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Old 10th October 2015, 8:37 PM   #129
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I can understand that, but games generally get developed across all platforms, that means 'consoles', and I doubt they have more than 4 cores? (I have no idea, but I assume they don't considering the cost of the console).

So I'd doubt software developers would be programming games to use more than that, unless they are PC only, which I doubt, as everyone is greedy these days :P
The PS4 and XBone use "custom" octocore Jaguar APUs.
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Old 10th October 2015, 9:32 PM   #130
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It could win the battle in a given price point, of not for the fact Intel would rather cut profit margins than be under-cut price wise.
Exactly right.. CPUs are a bit of a funny business.. most of the cost is in R&D. Scaling up production or die size is comparatively not that expensive. (for Intel anyway). In fact Intel has fabs right now being mothballed that it can spin-up to production if needed. There is no way Intel would let AMD gain significant market share if it can help it..

Quote:
Take AMD's Jaguar and Intel's Silvermont for example (since they're at least somewhat comparable). Despite the former being a Wider, Higher performance core, on 28nm, it's barely any bigger than a 22nm Silvermont.
Performance is comparable.. but Intel optimized for power to target tablets. Its less than half the power usage of AMD at load. If Intel clocked it higher to match the power usage, it would've been considerably faster.

Quote:
8 core CPU cheap enough to enable a competitive price strategy.
Its pretty much a given that AMD would have to be cheaper than Intel at the same performance level to sell chips (as it is now and always been). Intel's name brand would give it the edge otherwise.

If AMD released Zen equivalent to a 8-core Skylake-E with a die size of 4-core Skylake at $200. Intel will then ramp up 8-core Skylake-E production and sell it at $250.
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Old 11th October 2015, 12:07 AM   #131
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I can understand that, but games generally get developed across all platforms, that means 'consoles', and I doubt they have more than 4 cores? (I have no idea, but I assume they don't considering the cost of the console).

So I'd doubt software developers would be programming games to use more than that, unless they are PC only, which I doubt, as everyone is greedy these days :P
Current Gen consoles were pretty much the inspiration for closer-to metal, multi-thread friendly Graphics API's such as Mantle, and naturally, DX12. Worth mentioning though, that these don't automatically imply high levels of Multithreading, Delvelopers still need to leverage this, but rewards are there.

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Originally Posted by Thrawn View Post
Exactly right.. CPUs are a bit of a funny business.. most of the cost is in R&D. Scaling up production or die size is comparatively not that expensive. (for Intel anyway). In fact Intel has fabs right now being mothballed that it can spin-up to production if needed. There is no way Intel would let AMD gain significant market share if it can help it..



Performance is comparable.. but Intel optimized for power to target tablets. Its less than half the power usage of AMD at load. If Intel clocked it higher
to match the power usage, it would've been considerably faster.
I would say they both targeted similar market's, it's just Jaguar couldn't scale right to smartphone territory. Bottoming out at larger tablets instead
(with a 4.5w TDP) . If they had a 22nm FinFET process this may have been a different story.

Not sure which parts you're comparing Re' being half the power under load, as it's actually very difficult to compare SKU's, given Intel don't state their non-turbo frequencies in the lower TDP SKU's. You have to rely on actual benchmark data in similar Chassis, and make assumptions as to which TDP the manufacturer has configured for. When you do that, though there's not a great deal in it perf/watt wise (certainly NOT a factor two). Again if you could shove both of them on the same process, it would be very interesting.

In any case, back to my initial point, Neither uArch seems to scale past the 2.5-2.6Ghz mark, but Jaguar has a higher IPC ( significantly - in the order of 15-20% on avg) which is the only relevant factor when it comes to comparing core Density.

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Old 11th October 2015, 1:08 AM   #132
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Not sure which parts you're comparing Re' being half the power under load, as it's actually very difficult to compare SKU's, given Intel don't state their non-turbo frequencies in the lower TDP SKU's. You have to rely on actual benchmark data in similar Chassis, and make assumptions as to which TDP the manufacturer has configured for. When you do that, though there's not a great deal in it perf/watt wise (certainly NOT a factor two). Again if you could shove both of them on the same process, it would be very interesting.
I'm using the power usage benches below. J1900 5 watts above idle. AMD 5350 is 16 watts above idle.

http://www.techspot.com/review/806-a...l-d/page8.html

But yeah, on the same process they'd probably end up similar.
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Old 11th October 2015, 2:00 PM   #133
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Well, you could debate whether comparing Beema/Mullins is more relevent, but still, the AM1 APU's really aren't binned to compete with "SoC" Silvermont boards. They're absent of turbo modes, and their TDP's are very conservative as they have to plug into a generic socket.

comparing mobile SoC's at the time of Mullins launch

A6-6410 - 15w TDP 2.0-2.4Ghz

N3510 - 7.5w TDP . 2.16-2.58Ghz

So yes, Mullins has twice the TDP, (and no doubt a large power consumption deficit in practice) but it's also faster, and carries a far more powerful GPU. It's reasonable to assume, on a theoretical 20nm FF node, you could have knocked 20% of the frequencies and sit it in a very competitive TDP bracket next to the N3xxx

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Old 23rd November 2015, 10:00 PM   #134
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Any more news on Zen?
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Old 23rd November 2015, 11:07 PM   #135
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Only that performance from the first test silicon met AMDs expectations. We won't get anything of substance for another 6 months.
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