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Old 28th October 2016, 2:44 PM   #31
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taking function keys away for this thing is probably the most anti-business thing I can think of doing.

people lose their shit when function keys do anything but be function keys or don't exist.
I'm with you. It falls into the "cute but useless" category for business users.

Power users know their shortcuts back to front (and across multiple OSes), and will use them. Low-end users will continue to hunt-and-peck through menus. This serves no-one.

Apple's criticism is that function keys are old. Well, so is a keyboard, and all the Siri and all the touch interfaces in the world still can't beat them for someone who needs to use a computer to produce things (rather than a device to consume things).

From a BUSINESS point of view, this hardware refresh is the final confirmation I needed that Apple have zero interest in us as market. As someone who runs a tech department within a creative business that's packed full of Macs, our technical heads are meeting next to discuss the future of Apple in our business. Specific to high end production users, it's looking like a switch back to Windows is our only sane option right now for any application that doesn't currently support Linux (Adobe and AVID stuff, mostly).

Of course, none of that means a damn to home users, and non-business consumers. And that's my point. Apple are making it very clear that their target market is not anyone who needs business-level IT. That's perfectly fine, but what it means is, as a business customer, Apple are now off my vendor list.
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Old 28th October 2016, 3:51 PM   #32
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Umm that made that clear long ago when they ditched x-serve and Steve made a statement about it... they target home users and content creators. No one gives 2 shits about corporate / business level. There is no money in it and the people who make the decisions don't use the hardware.
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Old 28th October 2016, 3:55 PM   #33
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Umm that made that clear long ago when they ditched x-serve and Steve made a statement about it... they target home users and content creators. No one gives 2 shits about corporate / business level. There is no money in it and the people who make the decisions don't use the hardware.
Yes but it's been relatively (or not) easy to wedge them into the corporate space, but Apple continue to go their own way - that's fine for a consumer product that lives in a vacuum.
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Old 28th October 2016, 4:49 PM   #34
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I'm with you. It falls into the "cute but useless" category for business users.

Power users know their shortcuts back to front (and across multiple OSes), and will use them. Low-end users will continue to hunt-and-peck through menus. This serves no-one.

Apple's criticism is that function keys are old. Well, so is a keyboard, and all the Siri and all the touch interfaces in the world still can't beat them for someone who needs to use a computer to produce things (rather than a device to consume things).

From a BUSINESS point of view, this hardware refresh is the final confirmation I needed that Apple have zero interest in us as market. As someone who runs a tech department within a creative business that's packed full of Macs, our technical heads are meeting next to discuss the future of Apple in our business. Specific to high end production users, it's looking like a switch back to Windows is our only sane option right now for any application that doesn't currently support Linux (Adobe and AVID stuff, mostly).

Of course, none of that means a damn to home users, and non-business consumers. And that's my point. Apple are making it very clear that their target market is not anyone who needs business-level IT. That's perfectly fine, but what it means is, as a business customer, Apple are now off my vendor list.
I'd love to understand this further.

I use Macs in a couple of business settings and I don't ever really use the function keys for anything.

What are you using them for???

And how does the touch bar, which can simply be programmed to have those functions, make it any worse? If anything it adds a whole bunch of flexibility.
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Old 28th October 2016, 4:50 PM   #35
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I'd love to understand this further.

I use Macs in a couple of business settings and I don't ever really use the function keys for anything.

What are you using them for???

And how does the touch bar, which can simple be programmed to have those functions, make it any worse? If anything it adds a whole bunch of flexibility.
When you're working in a media company like cutting edge, it's understandable.
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Old 28th October 2016, 4:55 PM   #36
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When you're working in a media company like cutting edge, it's understandable.
You haven't explained how having a function on the touch bar is any worse that having it bound to a function key.

Seems to me the versatility and customisation the touch bar bring is better than a row of fixed keys...
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Old 28th October 2016, 5:16 PM   #37
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I'd love to understand this further.

I use Macs in a couple of business settings and I don't ever really use the function keys for anything.

What are you using them for???

And how does the touch bar, which can simply be programmed to have those functions, make it any worse? If anything it adds a whole bunch of flexibility.
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You haven't explained how having a function on the touch bar is any worse that having it bound to a function key.

Seems to me the versatility and customisation the touch bar bring is better than a row of fixed keys...
We use quite exclusively a large array of very expensive applications that do very custom things. Some of them are well known, some of them are a niche within a niche (we have a particular product that comes in at around $80K for a single license, and we own 3 out of the 6 or so in the southern hemisphere).

Tactile function keys are necessary for operators who jump between different manufacturers hardware products on a frequent basis. Removing the tactile option and replacing it with a bar is bad for power users. Making it something that an operator has to stop looking at their creative/visual tool, look down at the keyboard, "hunt and peck" for the OLED icon and then look up again will slow them down enormously. Secondarily, these operators have had thousands of hours of use on their tools, and will frequently jump to non-Apple hardware. The universal nature of function keys (even with respect to minor changes in keyboard styles/shapes/sizes) is necessary for them to operate fluidly in our business.

If you're talking a bunch of people in offices running MS Word and Excel, no, they won't care. But they're not what I consider power users either (and even if they are in those applications, chances are function keys are mostly useless to them). Ditto for casual users, students, or anyone else who Apple are trying to cater for with their "My First Computer" manifesto. And I should note, I am not criticising this audience. They exist, in great numbers, and their needs are as valid as anyone else's. However Apple are making it VERY clear in this generation of hardware that they are not interested in high end power users any more. If they were, they'd be making very necessary changes to many other parts of the Mac hardware and software ecosystem that have been broken for some time now, and are adversely affecting our industry.

You've somewhat answered your own question. If you're the kind of user who never uses function keys, you're not going to miss them when they go. Here's a somewhat related example for you: I *never* use the numeric keypad on a keyboard. My book-keeper wife does all day, every day. Put me at a keyboard without one, and I don't care. Put her at a keyboard without one, and you destroy her productivity for the day. Same goes for function keys - there's going to be a percentage of the market that just flat out cannot deal with their absence.
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Old 28th October 2016, 5:28 PM   #38
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We use quite exclusively a large array of very expensive applications that do very custom things. Some of them are well known, some of them are a niche within a niche (we have a particular product that comes in at around $80K for a single license, and we own 3 out of the 6 or so in the southern hemisphere).

Tactile function keys are necessary for operators who jump between different manufacturers hardware products on a frequent basis. Removing the tactile option and replacing it with a bar is bad for power users. Making it something that an operator has to stop looking at their creative/visual tool, look down at the keyboard, "hunt and peck" for the OLED icon and then look up again will slow them down enormously. Secondarily, these operators have had thousands of hours of use on their tools, and will frequently jump to non-Apple hardware. The universal nature of function keys (even with respect to minor changes in keyboard styles/shapes/sizes) is necessary for them to operate fluidly in our business.

If you're talking a bunch of people in offices running MS Word and Excel, no, they won't care. But they're not what I consider power users either (and even if they are in those applications, chances are function keys are mostly useless to them). Ditto for casual users, students, or anyone else who Apple are trying to cater for with their "My First Computer" manifesto. And I should note, I am not criticising this audience. They exist, in great numbers, and their needs are as valid as anyone else's. However Apple are making it VERY clear in this generation of hardware that they are not interested in high end power users any more. If they were, they'd be making very necessary changes to many other parts of the Mac hardware and software ecosystem that have been broken for some time now, and are adversely affecting our industry.

You've somewhat answered your own question. If you're the kind of user who never uses function keys, you're not going to miss them when they go. Here's a somewhat related example for you: I *never* use the numeric keypad on a keyboard. My book-keeper wife does all day, every day. Put me at a keyboard without one, and I don't care. Put her at a keyboard without one, and you destroy her productivity for the day. Same goes for function keys - there's going to be a percentage of the market that just flat out cannot deal with their absence.
Thanks for the great description I can see how this is a step backwards for you.

I think you're issue isn't a widespread one thoug. Most business users are in Excel/Word/Numbers/Pages etc. all day and the Touch Bar will be great for those users.

Other major useser of Macs are developers (where Xcode Touch Bar supprot looks amazing), and photographers/designers etc (again the Photoshop/Illustrator implementation looks incredible).

I accept there are niches where the new Mac doesn't work, but I think Apple are targeting the bulk of the market, not the edges.

You only have to look at IBM making a wholesale push to move their fleet to Macs to see that the Mac is thriving in business.
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Old 28th October 2016, 5:36 PM   #39
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You haven't explained how having a function on the touch bar is any worse that having it bound to a function key.

Seems to me the versatility and customisation the touch bar bring is better than a row of fixed keys...
Sorry I didn't think I'd have to explain the obvious. Any majority of Film/Tv/Design type work having buttons and a tactile feel is more productive....
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Old 28th October 2016, 7:45 PM   #40
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Sorry I didn't think I'd have to explain the obvious. Any majority of Film/Tv/Design type work having buttons and a tactile feel is more productive....
I'd give people a chance - you will be surprised.

I've noticed with with the iPad that people get used to the touch screen, they can be surprisingly productive. Even more so than they were on the old 'keyboard' paradigm.

I have seen the same thing with people who swear that a track pad is less productive, but find after an adjustment period they are when faster with the Magic Trackpad than they were with a mouse.

Tactile feedback is overrated in my experience.
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Old 28th October 2016, 7:48 PM   #41
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I'd give people a chance - you will be surprised.

I've noticed with with the iPad that people get used to the touch screen, they can be surprisingly productive. Even more so than they were on the old 'keyboard' paradigm.

I have seen the same thing with people who swear that a track pad is less productive, but find after an adjustment period they are when faster with the Magic Trackpad than they were with a mouse.

Tactile feedback is overrated in my experience.
we rolled out iPads, what fucking waste of money that was - everyone hated them.

touch is almost the worst way to do things, it's why mobile games are the bottom feeders of the gaming industry just garbage vs proper games with real accurate controls.
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Old 28th October 2016, 8:05 PM   #42
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I'd give people a chance - you will be surprised.

I've noticed with with the iPad that people get used to the touch screen, they can be surprisingly productive. Even more so than they were on the old 'keyboard' paradigm.

I have seen the same thing with people who swear that a track pad is less productive, but find after an adjustment period they are when faster with the Magic Trackpad than they were with a mouse.

Tactile feedback is overrated in my experience.
I use my MacBook Pro trackpad everyday and I plug it into monitor to use with mouse and keyboard everyday. Never ever have I ever gone geez I'm quicker on the touchpad. A mouse is at least twice as fast at doing things.

@power agree with everything you have said in this thread. I have a 13" MacBook Pro 2015 model and the new model adds nothing but a poofy little bar to the laptop. Next laptop will probably be a surface book. I mainly use win10 anyway
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Old 28th October 2016, 9:14 PM   #43
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I use my MacBook Pro trackpad everyday and I plug it into monitor to use with mouse and keyboard everyday. Never ever have I ever gone geez I'm quicker on the touchpad. A mouse is at least twice as fast at doing things.
Sorry, but you are objectively wrong.

Between gestures, tap to click, and force touch you have more input options on the track pad and than you will ever have on a mouse. You can also cover the whole screen far faster, with more accuracy (your fingers are far more accurate than your wrist).

Anyone tho argues that mice are better is stuck in a rut they need to train themselves out of.
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Old 28th October 2016, 9:21 PM   #44
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we rolled out iPads, what fucking waste of money that was - everyone hated them.

touch is almost the worst way to do things, it's why mobile games are the bottom feeders of the gaming industry just garbage vs proper games with real accurate controls.
You've proved my point.

People 'hated them' they didn't take the time and effort to learn new ways to do their work. They didn't take the time and effort to work out what tasks are better on the iPad.

The iPad is better for lots of tasks e.g. task management (omni focus), calendar management(fantastical), note taking with the pencil (nabo), digital painting (procreate), photo editing (lightroom and pixelmator).

It isn't great for everything, and you should obviously only use it for the stuff it is better at, but you also shouldn't just dismiss is and decide you hate it.

Everyone should have a smart watch, phone, tablet, laptop and desktop (or dock for the laptop) and use each device for the things it is best at.

It's silly to expect one or two devices to do everything.
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Old 28th October 2016, 9:35 PM   #45
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Looking around, the Macs are pretty reaonsble.

Similar level/quality laptops (eg. Razor, HP Spectre, Surface Book) are in the same price bracket.
Disagree. The Razer Blade outclasses the MBP in pretty much every way at a lower price point. The matte black version even looks like the RB.
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