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Old 28th May 2012, 5:04 PM   #1
Paul Warren Thread Starter
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Default Gmail for Business

Hi guys,

I have a bit of a weird question that I'm hoping someone may be able to assist with.

We currently use gmail for all our staff accounts in the office (but each account is made directly with google) as opposed to us using like; Google Apps or whatever they call it, and then using their administration page.

So what we do is:

We make: emailaccount@warcom.com.au and re-direct that account to emailaccount.warcom@gmail.com.

People email us, we email them - they think the email comes from our server, etc.

I know this isn't the correct way to actually set this up (but it works).

Here's our problem though; we also use the ticketing system "Kayako" on our server which is run using POP/IMAP and from what I've always read, you can't actually run google apps, if you are also running other application like this?

I haven't explained this very well obviously, but if anyone knows what I'm talking about - some help would be greatly appreciated

- Paul.
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Old 28th May 2012, 5:30 PM   #2
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So whats the actual issue?
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Old 28th May 2012, 5:44 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Paul Warren View Post
I know this isn't the correct way to actually set this up (but it works).
Firstly, I'd fix that.

GApps for Business works well enough, so long as you can guarantee internet access. Being an Online store, I'd say that if the internet stops, so does a big chunk of your business - so you'd (hopefully) have some business grade connection (i.e not ADSL(x/x+)).

There is no reason why you shouldn't be using dudeface@warcom.com.au (substitute dudeface for someone's name) under your GApps Admin account. Particularly if you want to review emails etc company wide without yoinking someone's actual real email to do so.

I'm pretty sure you pay for a user even if you're just using them to relay out to other users - if you don't, the $5/month/head isn't going to kill your business.

I honestly can't think of a good reason why you've done it that way - besides maybe really old iOS implementations if they didn't support multiple gapps for business account with full service (calendar, contacts, etc). It won't take you long to fix it either.

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Here's our problem though; we also use the ticketing system "Kayako" on our server which is run using POP/IMAP and from what I've always read, you can't actually run google apps, if you are also running other application like this?
POP and IMAP are supported, just like regular free Gmail. See here http://support.google.com/a/bin/answ...&answer=105694

Now if you just want something that Kayako can relay out via, you can use your google apps pop servers (read the doco) - or you can use your own (i.e hmail administrator - free) then have it relay out, or you can use your ISP's.

If your ticketing system is a spamming whore, this is one of those instances where i'd say an in-house mail system is superior - because you're not sending shitloads of internal mail out of your ip.
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Old 28th May 2012, 7:17 PM   #4
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Rather than rely on Google for what is basically mission critical, I'd suggest that you go for a MS Small Business Server 2011 setup, this way you have Exchange etc. Really easy to setup too, and free 120 day trial from memory.

Why not virtualise both servers with ESXi?
I'd say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with using Google Apps for Business, other significantly larger and more critical organisations than Warcom use it without issue.

Using forwarded email for no good reason seems a little silly though.

Your ticketing system that checks via IMAP should be able to do that with google apps without issue, again many organisations do this.
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Old 28th May 2012, 7:23 PM   #5
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I'd say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with using Google Apps for Business, other significantly larger and more critical organisations than Warcom use it without issue.
Likewise Office 365. There are some serious heavy-hitters moving to these sort of hosted services.

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Rather than rely on Google for what is basically mission critical, I'd suggest that you go for a MS Small Business Server 2011 setup, this way you have Exchange etc.
And host it where? In his high-availability server cupboard out next to the tea room? And what's his business, serving customers, or running IT infrastructure? Hosted apps like this work for lots of reasons.

(edit) - wow. Re-read the above, I'm a bit OT there!
If your ticketing system Kayako needs to be pointed to an SMTP server, I can't see why you couldn't point it to google's server http://support.google.com/mail/bin/a...n&answer=13287

(another edit) - Paul, you'd probably best try and explain a little better what your question is....
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Old 29th May 2012, 9:47 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Baker View Post
Rather than rely on Google for what is basically mission critical, I'd suggest that you go for a MS Small Business Server 2011 setup, this way you have Exchange etc. Really easy to setup too, and free 120 day trial from memory.

Why not virtualise both servers with ESXi?
I would bet that Google Apps for a small business would be more reliable than an SBS setup in most cases... and cheaper to run.

Exchange admin is a bitch if something goes wrong.. then you're talking about virtualising with ESX as well, adding another layer of complexity and another system to support.

There is not enough info in here to make the recommendation to set up internal infrastructure for this... bad advice.
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Old 29th May 2012, 9:59 AM   #7
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If I understand the question correctly, why don't you have Kayako pointed at your gmail account? Kayako itself has no problems accessing Gmail accounts via IMAP and I've set this up before.

Secondly, I'd make the decision to move it all directly to Google Apps or find an alternative. The last thing you want is more points of failure for a business (especially when it comes to email).

I'm sure you'll ignore the Exchange suggestion, unless you have a lot of spare $$ to pay a sysadmin to maintain it
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Old 29th May 2012, 10:12 AM   #8
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I'm sure you'll ignore the Exchange suggestion, unless you have a lot of spare $$ to pay a sysadmin to maintain it
Yep.. plus a 'server room' to store it in, a network to connect to it via, + firewall etc, plus the hardware and software licenses to host it on, and back it up etc.. etc.. etc.

etc.. etc..


etc..
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Old 29th May 2012, 12:20 PM   #9
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Nothing wrong with using SBS2011 with the POP connector, its designed for stuff like this! You speak about the complexity etc (which lets face it these days is not too much) - this is Warcom we're talking about, a PC shop, which deals with business customers, don't think a SBS would be too far beyond them (not to mention the other uses for it ie staff intranet for leave forms, centralised file and doc storage, etc.
Why would they invest in hardware, software, setup costs, maintenance and admin costs etc and TIME to set this up when for a small fraction of the cost they can get something up and running quicker, cheaper, and have it run more reliably?

Even if there was expertise internally to set all that up you'd be silly not to look at Google Apps in this situation. I've set up Google Apps for numerous small businesses like this in under a day, set and forget.. no problems at all, and no hardware/infrastructure/ongoing admin and maintenance etc to worry about. It's a no-brainer in most cases.
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Old 29th May 2012, 12:55 PM   #10
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Nothing wrong with using SBS2011 with the POP connector, its designed for stuff like this! You speak about the complexity etc (which lets face it these days is not too much) - this is Warcom we're talking about, a PC shop, which deals with business customers, don't think a SBS would be too far beyond them (not to mention the other uses for it ie staff intranet for leave forms, centralised file and doc storage, etc.
Actually, if you knew the amount of support calls that arise from Exchange POP connectors (from a hosting provider's perspective) it's anything but reliable. I know of quite a number of small businesses who went the SBS server in their office route with POP connector and about 50% have reverted back. It was either costing them too much to keep it working (ie support calls) or they couldn't afford to keep it working and therefore scrapped it.

Like managing any server, you need someone to maintain it. SBS combines many servers into one and the complexity to end users is well beyond their means. This is why "cloud" hosted solutions are now the norm rather than the exception for most small businesses, it's far more cost effective and certainly more reliable.
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Old 29th May 2012, 1:03 PM   #11
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This is why "cloud" hosted solutions are now the norm rather than the exception for most small businesses, it's far more cost effective and certainly more reliable.
As a small business integrator whos background is Medium-Large Business IT with a sprinkle of Enterprise (Federal Government). knows how to build Exchange, SQL, AD, etc and also does SBS stuff.

I'll believe the shit you're selling when (if?) the NBN becomes common place. Connectivity is the problem.

Cloud solutions are shithouse if you can only get ~400kbit/sec up (often less than 8mbit down) and the next price point is $6k/month for 4Mbit/4Mbit with a 100k+ investment to get it off the ground.

Cloud works great until you hit 4-5 users, or you're heavy users of that traffic. Or you know, you have other requirements.
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Old 29th May 2012, 1:31 PM   #12
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I'll believe the shit you're selling when (if?) the NBN becomes common place. Connectivity is the problem.
That, and that like the rest of Google's offerings aside from the search engine, apps for business is cobbled together with bits of string and dodgyness. Should really rename it to "gmail with domains". Pretending it's a business ready platform is quite misleading.
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Old 29th May 2012, 1:48 PM   #13
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I'm going to make the assumption that the last two posters haven't implemented or used Google Apps commercially before..

I've done 12 or so implementations, no problems at all.. Works fine and is pretty reliable bar one or two instances (still well within SLAs though). I know of larger companies (5000+ seats) who use it and can't say enough good things about it, including Government departments here in Australia.

I think it's an excellent tool, and works quite well. Having said that though, I have made my stance quite clear on these forums regarding their terms of use and privacy policies.. if you're ok with that potential risk then it can be a brilliant solution (obviously not for all circumstances...)
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Old 29th May 2012, 1:53 PM   #14
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My workplace has both Google Apps and Exchange, 30K+ users. We have both under "trial" to see which one is the best, and that will become the only one in 2 years time. So far, Google Apps is winning without breaking a sweat.

I've deployed Google Apps for small businesses before. Works a treat.
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Old 29th May 2012, 2:02 PM   #15
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I'm going to make the assumption that the last two posters haven't implemented or used Google Apps commercially before..

I've done 12 or so implementations, no problems at all.. Works fine and is pretty reliable bar one or two instances (still well within SLAs though). I know of larger companies (5000+ seats) who use it and can't say enough good things about it, including Government departments here in Australia.

I think it's an excellent tool, and works quite well. Having said that though, I have made my stance quite clear on these forums regarding their terms of use and privacy policies.. if you're ok with that potential risk then it can be a brilliant solution (obviously not for all circumstances...)
I've implemented it a few times. And recommend it where appropriate.

1. Its not a feature complete as SBS/AD+Exchange.
2. If you have no internet, nothing is happening.

I do tend to agree that "gmail with domains" is probably a better term. Its *far* superior than anything that came before it (in terms of cloud-based corporate mail), but its not as polished as it should be.

Note that my biggest beefs with it is that a 10-15 user office dies without internet and GMail is not really equivalent to Outlook when coupled with Exchange - and the Outlook for GApps connector thingy is a decent attempt (again - definitely better than anything that came before it), but its *never* going to be as smooth or as seamless as a heterogeneous solution from Microsoft.

Reliable Connectivity is a huge problem outside of big business (in so much that only they can afford it). I have areas that i service that see 1-2 days outage twice a year - of everything. Phone's, Internet. Usually 2-3 hours without power. Just because of a heavy downpour and poor infrastructure.

Getting a service that will get around this through this is a six figure investment with a 4-6k monthly cost.

This all changes with the NBN. I'll be singing high praises for it. Till then it boils down to this.

Moving to the Cloud may reduce your server infrastructure and admin maintenance costs - but it will increase your connectivity costs.

Businesses *hate* ongoing monthly fees - and convincing them they need to spend 10-20 times more, per month, for slower data transfer - just so their little cloud solution can stay online - is much harder than selling them a server and seeing them once a month for an hour or two of maintenance.


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My workplace has both Google Apps and Exchange, 30K+ users. We have both under "trial" to see which one is the best, and that will become the only one in 2 years time. So far, Google Apps is winning without breaking a sweat.

I've deployed Google Apps for small businesses before. Works a treat.
IIRC you're at RMIT. Exchange is definitely not something i would ever implement for a student population. I would honestly do both. GApps (or similar) for students and Exchange for staff.
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