Choice of Programming Language

[dmandn]

Why are there scripting languages in amongst those programming language choices?


....Also has anyone else had the privelege to try lisp? Or more specifically lush http://lush.sourceforge.net/ ?

[Cpt.J.Sparrow]

Originally Posted by gcflora

what programming language do you feel most comfortable in?

Currently, assembly, C++/#, and LabVIEW.

[gcflora]

The results are quite interesting already! The comments are even more interesting. I notice a few C# (/.NET) votes. I've dabbled a bit in C# and find it nice to work with -- one of the "nicer" C-like languages I must say.

Python is also an interesting one. For a project I was working on last year, the two other people (both biologists/botanists) who I sought advice from strongly tried to persuade me to use Python to implement the project in Python. I ended up using C++ though because I (paradoxically perhaps) can write more quickly in C++ than Python (especially when combined with frameworks such as Qt).

I can't say I've had much to do with PHP except for a very small project about a year ago. In the end though my part in that project came down to writing the regex so I don't count myself as ever having really used PHP.

And someone has chosen ASM. I wish I could have but it's been so many years since I used it regularly I can no longer say I am currently proficient in it (although I guess it's like riding a bike and it would be a matter of just using it again). I don't think I'd like to tackle a large ASM project though... perhaps something embedded would be ok but even then I'd probably use C and inline ASM if necessary for loops or interrupt handling or some other necessity.

Originally Posted by dmandn

Why are there scripting languages in amongst those programming language choices?

I did warn that there were languages there "not normally considered programming languages" by all in my first post I added them to the poll because in a way they aren't really all that different to interpreted languages and so sysadmin type people who use them a lot, but rarely C or Perl or anything, could have their say. I drew the line at HTML though

[gcflora]

Oh, and nobody has picked Modula-2 I actually like Modula-2... I must download GPM and muck around with it again

[mr626]

Originally Posted by Foliage

What don't you get about it? Or you just prefer procedural code?

I used to write lots of C before java etc and found it difficult to understand why but when I got used to it I started to love it. I mean just simple stuff like say you want multiple of the same type of client running in your app, makes sense to make it an object etc.

Hard to explain- I just seem to get to a certain point and then...it doesn't all fit into place in my head like it should I'm not giving up, hopefully with enough work it will come to me eventually.

I did a bit of C and C++ at uni, but that feels like an age ago now and I haven't touched it since.

I do prefer to write procedural code, but that is more a flow on from not getting object oriented properly. That said, a lot of the coding I do at work is for simple, single use projects that rarely if ever get re-used so procedural code isn't a bad fit for them.

[gcflora]

The difference between "procedural" languages and object-oriented is not that great a leap is it?

Edit: mr626 I was not referring to you not getting it; i.e. not having a dig at you... it's just a general question, probably more aimed at foliage

Originally Posted by dmandn

....Also has anyone else had the privelege to try lisp? Or more specifically lush http://lush.sourceforge.net/ ?

Haven't tried it myself, but those who use Lisp certainly seem to love it

[Soarer GT]

Originally Posted by Zoltag

I would guess Soarer GT means that its an interpreted language, as opposed to a compiled language.

The big advantage (as I see it, anyway) is in a corporate environment where you have a large code base spread across multiple servers, requiring frequent modifications - Its simply easier to modify the code directly where it is being used.

Oh, it also stops the random rogue from holding you hostage

EDIT: Forgot the main reason - Its much, much, much easier to switch hardware with interpreted code, which doesnt need to be recompiled / installed for every installation.

This.

Having dealt with alot of .NET code / setups, The actual .Net site instance isnt so bad if it wasnt for the fact that everything around it was a piece of crap.

.NET issues I've had to deal with in the last 18 months. (As a Network/Systems person, not as a .Net dev) :
- The standard .NET library can not export more than one excel file at a time. What happens when more than 1 person uses the system? The export fails. Pay $400 for a .DLL file to allow multiple xls exports at a time from 1 instance.
- Migrating from 1 server to another. Copy the files/database across. Still doesnt work. Dev : "Oh... you need to install this additional framework for it to work... it's only $1200 per server". WTFBBQ?
- Same migration as above : The application only works with .Net 3.5 with patches x, y and z. it wont work with any other versioin. Me : "Shouldnt it be backwards compatible?". Dev : "yes. But it doesnt work".
- More of an IIS gripe regarding SSL certs and multiple sites. The need to have apache running on a windows server to serve pages to IIS to serve requests to the .Net app.

It shouldnt be this hard.

[Foliage]

I think a lot of those problems are relevant to anyone using multiple libraries/frameworks.

[Soarer GT]

Originally Posted by Foliage

I think a lot of those problems are relevant to anyone using multiple libraries/frameworks.

Which is why languages like PHP are so popular. They dont need so many frameworks to just get stuff working and you can find the issues with less hassle. Broken items are limited to 1 or 2 pages which is usually easy to see in the hierachy.

.Net code doesnt work - Cant look at the compiled code on the server. Need to open the project/source. Dont have the source? Too bad, you fail.

got source? Need Visual Studio to read/trace/check it.

The cost of maintenance via time/software to actually review it vs notepad/vim. To get started on reviewing the software, you'd waste a day setting your environment up.

I know I'm bashing on pre-compiled code (.Net / Java / etc ) but I've been in so many multi million dollar failed projects using those technologies its shameful. The two projects that have succeeded have been PHP based. Maybe php devs are better overall (understand the whole system rather than their components).

Yes I do have a CS degree and have programmed in JAVA/C/C++/ADA/Perl/Python as well.

[Luke212]

nearly all of the issues raised happen exclusively to shitty programming practices. its pointless to discuss the differences unless you are a rock star programmer, which most people on here are definitely not.

[Foliage]

Originally Posted by Soarer GT

Which is why languages like PHP are so popular. They dont need so many frameworks to just get stuff working and you can find the issues with less hassle. Broken items are limited to 1 or 2 pages which is usually easy to see in the hierachy.

.Net code doesnt work - Cant look at the compiled code on the server. Need to open the project/source. Dont have the source? Too bad, you fail.

got source? Need Visual Studio to read/trace/check it.

The cost of maintenance via time/software to actually review it vs notepad/vim. To get started on reviewing the software, you'd waste a day setting your environment up.

I know I'm bashing on pre-compiled code (.Net / Java / etc ) but I've been in so many multi million dollar failed projects using those technologies its shameful. The two projects that have succeeded have been PHP based. Maybe php devs are better overall (understand the whole system rather than their components).

Yes I do have a CS degree and have programmed in JAVA/C/C++/ADA/Perl/Python as well.

Sure but you are probably talking more about web orientated programming, what about building a small GUI application? Horses for courses.

[Cronox]

Virtually all I use at work is VB and SQL. When I am mucking around in my own time I typically go for C#, mostly because I am used to working in visual studio and find it easier to write than vb.

[akashra]

I am yet to find a programming language I'm totally happy with. Finding a language and framework is even harder. I'll give you an example:

I like Java, I really do.
But it lacks that simple ability to do define things like tables and structs quickly and rapidly like you could do in C.
But in C, you make a small mistake with a pointer, and you end up blowing the whole thing up.
Flex has a lovely UI system - its declarative UIs are incredibly fantastic. And its data binding, OMG, why the hell doesn't Java have both of these features by now!?
Java's UIs are all round horrible to use. Ever tried to position and grow and object just how you want? It's horrible. WinForms isn't quite up there with Flex (IMO), but it's close. XWT is half way to what's needed, but still nowhere near close. And its Data binding is still way way away from where it needs to be.
Edit: Where Flex seriously collapses is the inability to really, properly handle keystroke-driven applications and events.

And Java's threading model... can we have a goddamn return value from Thread.wait already!? We're decades in to this technology and there's still actually no way to determine whether a thread was polled or the wait expired without guessing.

But none of that gets away from the fact that you can write the code and run it almost everywhere, not caring whether your target is Windows, Linux, Mac, some kind of web platform and reuse the same code... that dwarves all these massive problems with the language.

I tend to agree that PHP is great for simple, dirty "get it up and running NOW" webapps. But as soon as you move beyond something being a Webapp, it's no longer great.

For desktop apps I similarly do like C#, but it just doesn't have that portability I require of projects.


When someone finally releases an MXML-like spec that allows me to write a Java app that can be, without changes, exported to either a webapp or desktop app, I'll have a heart-attack.
(Edit: And I don't mean Air. It has to have a native LaF).
Until then, we're stuck with "okay, I can use Swing, but it'll look ugly and be impossble to position components how I want them, easily", or "SWT is nice, but equally complex" or "JFace makes me want to stab myself in the eye" or "GWT is great, but then it can only be a webapp"...

[Foliage]

Originally Posted by akashra

For desktop apps I similarly do like C#, but it just doesn't have that portability I require of projects..

Silverlight is great, you can make controls in WPF that will work in a webbrowser etc, etc, IE only lol.

If they could make C# multi platform it would absolutely dominate.

[akashra]

Once upon a time, I tried to use .GNU and Mono.

I'll never get that part of my life back.