J&M Wedding

[schliebs87]

Shot this wedding last night as my second time as a second shooter.
Here's a few I've edited up now

All CC more than welcome!


Rings by PaulSchliebs, on Flickr


Preparing by PaulSchliebs, on Flickr


Underfoot by PaulSchliebs, on Flickr


Nerves by PaulSchliebs, on Flickr


Rings by PaulSchliebs, on Flickr


Signing by PaulSchliebs, on Flickr


Flower Girl by PaulSchliebs, on Flickr


Pier by PaulSchliebs, on Flickr


Flowers by PaulSchliebs, on Flickr


Reception by PaulSchliebs, on Flickr


Sunny Chair by PaulSchliebs, on Flickr


Entry by PaulSchliebs, on Flickr


Speech by PaulSchliebs, on Flickr


First Dance by PaulSchliebs, on Flickr

[SupremeMoFo]

I like the photos, but I don't like the lack of smiles in them! Seems too serious, but that's the couple's problem.

[dche5390]

Originally Posted by schliebs87

All CC more than welcome!

Too tight
Inconsistent WB
Sepia
Lack of 'wedding' emotions
Poor composition

[schliebs87]

Originally Posted by SupremeMoFo

I like the photos, but I don't like the lack of smiles in them! Seems too serious, but that's the couple's problem.

Yep, barely got a single smile! They were very serious!

Originally Posted by dche5390

Too tight
Inconsistent WB
Sepia
Lack of 'wedding' emotions
Poor composition

Can you elaborate a little more on these points to help me out?
It's not very constructive if you just list things you thought weren't good if you don't explain why.

I understand your style is very consistent but in this case I have been trying a few things on different shots to get a bit of a feel of works for me. These are not the photos that will be submitted to the couple as the main tog has the RAWs and will edit them as he sees fit.

[ElBeasto]

I'm not a wedding photographer, or even a pro but I'll throw in my 2 cents.
dche5390 knows what he's talking about so if not me, listen to him.


Two shots where there's a too thin depth of field, the second shot & the speeches shot.

Some unfortunate compositions, the parked car sticking out of the girls head sitting on the bench, otherwise I don't mind it.

The power lines! Just no. They would be easily removed with 'content aware' fill in CS6.

The kid on the floor is a cute shot but it doesn't need the colour cast or tint.

nerves could be okay be she looks like she's about to throw her hole, not really your fault but yeah...

Flower girl needs a faster shutter speed IMO and perhaps taken more from behind & lower. Not a bad idea for a shot though.

Holding hands in 'Rings' is alright but I'm not sure if B&W does anything for it & kind of adds to the overall inconsistency.

The tilted composition in 'Entry' doesn't work for me and as in most shots, the bride is looking uncomfortable. Again, the bride's expression isn't your fault, just saying.

Flowers is okay, it's well exposed and the WB looks a little better.

[dche5390]

My rudeness is due to me being time poor and being very blunt.

I'm going to tell it to you straight. The photos are horrible. There is nothing engaging about them. The compositions do not interest me. The editing does not engage me. And the emotions are entirely negative.

Allow me to explain. And I hope you'll take the time to review these comments in the coming weeks, as it is going to take some thick skin to move past the defensive stage and see where I'm coming from.

First off, the bride and groom look like fucking shit. There is no other way to say this. They are unhappy. They certainly look extremely unhappy. This is a wedding, not a funeral. People will tell you that this is not your fault/problem. I'm going to tell you others. It is your fault. It is your problem. And as a photographer, it sure as hell is your responsibility.

Your clients want to look good. Any idiot with a camera can take a half decent photograph given the right lighting conditions. As a wedding photographer, your role is to facilitate the experience. What this translates to in real life action is to make sure that your clients are comfortable. If you sense that they feel off, figure it out. Talk to them. See what is wrong. Calm their nerves. Tell them that everything is ok. If things are going wrong, fix them, or if they are beyond fixing, tell them that in the big scheme, these problems don't matter at all.

At the end of the day, the photos are the things that each couple will have to hold onto. Everything else passes and disappears. You're the only point of contact that they will have access to to blame. You don't want to be in a position where they can release all their wedding/marriage frustrations onto you.

One great example of how a photographer interacts and facilitates the wedding experience for the bride/groom/bridal party is Hien (methd). If you know his photo where the groom and his boys have their pants down, then you will know that shit like that doesn't just happen. The boys have to have a certain rapport with Hien in order to show him that cheeky mischievous side. This is what I mean by facilitation. Too many photographers interpret photojournalism as sitting back and waiting for shit to happen. Shit doesn't happen. You've got to make it happen. And when it comes to human beings, you really need to break that barrier so that you can get in close and not invade upon their personal space.

I do not see a single image of the bride looking anywhere calm/collected or even happy. What the fuck? It doesn't have to be a smile, but there is a very uneasy, awkward and unwelcome feel to every photograph that the bride is in.

Your compositions are lazy. Tight compositions are generally lazy. The wider the perspective, the harder it is. The black and white hand (presumably ring shot) is boring. I can't see anything. Surely the face of the bride/groom would have been more significant? The signing of the registry is meaningless by itself. I can't see anyone's face. I can't work out what the overall emotion is. It is just a photo of french manicured fingers, a hand, a pen, and some piece of paper.

A lot of what I do is being perceptive of what is about to happen. With experience, this becomes a lot easier. For example, the flower girl photo. Kudos for taking it, but I can tell it wasn't planned. It was a spur of the moment and at least your brain registered that perhaps it was a worthwhile photo to take. Next time, plan your shots. Know what will happen, when, and where. Position yourself in advance. Excuse yourself to make it happen. Being prepared is most of the battle. The execution is the easy stuff.

The editing is inconsistent. What I mean is that the white balance is ALL over the place. There is a weird hue/tint to each image. The colours just don't look pleasing. I can tell you from experience that matching one's editing across 400+ images is a fucking nightmare. That is why I use presets so I don't nerd rage and smash my own balls out of fun.

When you say that these photos aren't being delivered to the clients, what exactly do these photographs represent? What do these mean to you? Why have you decided to edit these particular ones and submit yourself to insult from me with these images?

Now I know you're the second photographer and I know what that implies in terms of access, but you asked for CC and I gave it to you. Take what you want and will.

Being a second photographer means helping out more than taking photographs. The lead is 9 out 10 times more than capable to coverage most of the 'moments'. Being an extra set of eyes, hands and feet means that you can see things happening and facilitate the right reaction. This is what a lot of newcomers fail to understand. Anyone idiot can take a half decent photo. But can you do that non-stop throughout the entire day?

I've spent 20 minutes on this response that I could have attended to my own affairs. I really do hope that you take the time to think about what I said. Once upon a time, on another forum, I posted a series of photos that I was very proud of at the time. Another member responded with a one liner similar to what I gave you earlier on. It enraged me. I only saw red. It took a banning from that forum and many months later, to realise the truth in those blunt few words.

Never stop learning. Never stop the willingness to learn. All the best Paul.

[hdkhang]

Originally Posted by dche5390

Tight compositions are generally lazy. The wider the perspective, the harder it is.

I'm going to pay more attention to this point the next time I go shooting. Thanks.

To the OP, I wish you the best of luck... the photos didn't do anything for me personally, but we can't improve unless we do occasionally subject ourselves to scrutiny.

[ElBeasto]

That's damn right & scrutiny begins at home.

I've been shooting a year and only just now realising that pretty much all my photos suck balls and basically it's because I've been super lazy with it plus I didn't know any better.

but knowing this is a good thing, it means I can start on improving where I see poo.

Learning to operate a camera is really easy, learning to see is fucking hard.

Good luck.

[schliebs87]

Hi Dan, I really appreciate your feedback and the time it took to reply.

Originally Posted by dche5390

When you say that these photos aren't being delivered to the clients, what exactly do these photographs represent? What do these mean to you? Why have you decided to edit these particular ones and submit yourself to insult from me with these images?

To be honest it was kind of hard to pick which photos I wanted to put up.
I had edited about 160 of the ones I took and the reason why these ones are up is because they roughly covered the logical path of a wedding: Rings, Preparation, Ceremony, Post-ceremony shots, Speeches, First Dance.

They weren't especially the best of the bunch and to be honest, I couldn't work out why they weren't better. I was looking for some constructive criticism on them to help me understand why they weren't better.
Being fairly new to the game I find it difficult sometimes to articulate exactly how some photos don't work and why some do.

My intention wasn't to submit myself to insult (why would anyone do that?) but more to help me work out how I can do better. I'm not too fussed though, I have a thick skin but my eyes and ears are open and receptive.

Originally Posted by dche5390

I'm going to tell it to you straight.

I show shots to friends and family and they say "oh they're great", "wow, amazing!" etc etc. I call it the girlfriend treatment.
It's worse because I know my shots can be better but I have trouble finding someone to actually give some proper CC to help me improve.
I'm pretty sure it was Newton who stated that a body will continue with the same velocity unless acted upon by an external force.

Originally Posted by dche5390

The editing is inconsistent. What I mean is that the white balance is ALL over the place. There is a weird hue/tint to each image.

Yep I agree. The inconsistency I believe is due to me just "trying something" with most photos. I never really realised until you mentioned but looking back on the editing process I have realised I start getting a little bored due to the time it takes without using any presets.
I find myself making things black and white or tinted just to change it up rather than actually using these tools to enhance or convey some sort of meaning.
It is lazy and I will be aiming to cease this in future. I will also develop some of my own presets.

Some of the images I have "warmed up" slightly to try and get some sort of warmth into the feel of the wedding.

To be honest, there was a really negative feel to the whole day and I was trying to tint to erase that a little. Lol, i guess it didn't work!

Originally Posted by dche5390

you're the second photographer

Originally Posted by dche5390

It is your fault. It is your problem

Here is where it gets a bit difficult.
My role for my main tog is to get: "shots of the rings and flowers, candid shots of the bride and groom and whatever else you feel like taking" to roughly quote him.
Where do my boundaries exist in regard to connecting and communicating with the clients? I feel I want to connect during the day but I also do not want to step on my employer's toes.

I know that you've got your shit pretty down pat but how would you feel is your second was spending time with the bride and groom? I'm not being a dick either, it's a serious question. I know that every photographer is different but I'm interested on your take and how you'd feel about it.
I guess I should also talk to my guy and find out where I stand so we're clear.

I could see that they weren't having fun and the fairly structured style of the photographer wasn't really suiting them very well. He didn't seem to mind too much either.

Originally Posted by dche5390

Your compositions are lazy. Tight compositions are generally lazy. The wider the perspective, the harder it is.

Ok, I see. I was a bit nervous I guess and probably thought "oh, everyone like the nice close shots with the 'blurry background' style shots.
It is lazy and I'm going to work on this.

Originally Posted by dche5390

The signing of the registry is meaningless by itself.

True, the main tog asked me specifically to get these shots. He was getting the full, wide shots and it didn't make sense to me to stand over his shoulder and get the same shots as him. Probably shouldn't have included it in the set.

Originally Posted by dche5390

A lot of what I do is being perceptive of what is about to happen. With experience, this becomes a lot easier.

I am literally going to write a list of main structure of the wedding and what photographic opportunities exist for me in those and some probable events that could occur that I need to be.
My excuse to myself before was that I can be flexible and intuitive but it still won't hurt to help my familiarity with the day.



Seriously mate, I really appreciate your honesty on this one. Photography is not my day job but it is my hobby and I really want to get better and always keep challenging myself to do better. I have no intentions to shoot weddings by myself either!

I have 3 more weddings in the next month (next one this coming Saturday) for this photographer and I sure as shit want to do better than last weekend! I'm going to spend this week digesting all these points and work through it...

Thanks again,
Paul

[SupremeMoFo]

Full points for how well you've responded to that

[sejanus]

I show shots to friends and family and they say "oh they're great", "wow, amazing!" etc etc. I call it the girlfriend treatment.

Yeah you need to ignore anyone that wants to be nice to you.

For example imagine a bride who picks a crap photographer. Her shots are bloody awful - the worst you can imagine. She posts them on facebook, all her friends say "oh wow the photos are so beautiful". Not because they are, but because they just want to be nice to her and socially it's the right thing to do. Happens all the time.

FWIW though I agree in general with Daniels comments I'd only really apply them 100% to you if you were the main/sole photographer. It's tough as a second, even though my second guys are good they never get the same rapport with the couple as they don't get the chance to engage with them like I do.

[Intric8]

Kudos for being able to take such blunt criticism on board.
It's worth it in the long run.

ps. you're a big meanie, dan!

[timsarg]

all i got from those photo's is a feeling of regret from the bride for getting married

[nc006]

Originally Posted by timsarg

all i got from those photo's is a feeling of regret from the bride for getting married

I tend to agree with that.

Also, the bride, the groom and one of the bridesmaids look very familiar to me

[BeanerSA]

All threads in the photography forum should be like this one.