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Old 13th September 2016, 10:28 PM   #1
nimmers Thread Starter
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Default Scanline thread

I've picked up a few Sony PVM's over the last few months and have been doing some retro gaming.

Picked up a 1 chip Japanese Super Famicom and built a groovymame box.

So far Ive finished:
Shadowrun (SNES)
Crono Trigger (SNES)
Super Mario World
Shadow of the Colossus (PS2)
And played heaps of SF2: Hyper Fighting and DoDonPachi in groovymame


Click to view full size!


Click to view full size!


Anyone else out there hooking up old consoles to CRT monitors via RGB?
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Old 14th September 2016, 8:24 AM   #2
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I already posted in the retro activity/acquisitions threads, but I recently scored a Teac 68CM CRT TV with RGB SCART and S-VHS inputs.
I got it home and it had a pincushion problem - the sides were collapsed inwards in the middle, while the upper and lower parts were stretched outwards.

Turned out to be a dead bipolar electrolytic cap in the horizontal deflection circuit, so once that was replaced everything came good.

I've picked up RGB SCART leads for my Master System, SNES, Megadrive, N64 and PSX and have been enjoying heaps of retro gaming lately. The images really do look sharp and clear, and colours are very vibrant.
So far I've been playing - Sonic, Wonder Boy: Dragons Trap on SMS
Super Mario World, Seiken Densetsu 3, Final Fantasy 2 on SNES
Sonic 1 and 2 on Mega Drive.
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Old 14th September 2016, 8:56 PM   #3
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Awesome! Next on my list is Castlevania SOTN on PS1, just waiting for my RGB cable to arrive.
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Old 14th September 2016, 9:40 PM   #4
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I've always wondered this but I never could see scanlines on my tvs when I was a kid, I mean maybe if I put my face 30cm from the screen and squinted. So I have no nostalgia for them at all to me they look ugly. What is the obsession with them? They just make the image look weird and dark, and unless you had like a $20000 or whatever they cost pvm monitor you wouldn't have even seen them back in the day.
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Old 15th September 2016, 6:05 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by partybear View Post
They just make the image look weird and dark
That's the point though, the color output of 8-16-bit consoles was tuned to take that into account. So a lot of people load up an emulator and think it's okay, but what they'd seeing is too bright compared what it should be. Then they turn on scanline generation and the game suddenly just looks "right" and now you can't live without them.

Scanlines also help reduce the blockiness of the large pixels of those kinds of games, then there's the other qualities of CRTs that are different to LCDs...
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Old 15th September 2016, 9:17 AM   #6
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I've gone the other way to get to console scanlines due to space constraints at my place. Per my thread I'm using a Nanao MS2931 hooked up to a PC running CRT_EmuDriver. CRT_EmuDriver generates lists of resolutions needed for games and then adds these to Windows as supported resolutions. You then need to find an emulator that is happy to run games at full screen native resolution - this is more or less difficult depending on what system you want. It is also hard to get the emulator to switch resolution the way some original systems did as well (SNES using high resolution for menu screens etc).

I'd love to get a PVM/BVM and consoles (and started collecting in that direction) but it is just too much space - I'm in an apartment and choices have to be made
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Old 15th September 2016, 3:11 PM   #7
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I'm in my 30s my first console was a commodore 64, and honestly I didn't even know scanlines existed until like 2010. Other then amiga users no one used rgb on their video games as kids. Out of all the nintendo consoles the only one that could even do rgb was the snes and the cable for it was not sold in Australia.

If you didn't have a super high end monitor feeding it rgb signals you wouldn't have seen the scanlines. On a standard setup 99.9% of kids had the colors would bleed and make the scanlines invisible. A crt tv with rf or if your were lucky composite.

If anyone here even knew what rgb or a scanline was before the internet I would be surprised.

I always liked this image, it illustrates my point better then words.
https://i.warosu.org/data/vr/img/002...4162053758.png

Scanlines can be a preference but to say that it is the way the games were when you were a kid and that it is the way they were meant to be played is just false.

Last edited by partybear; 15th September 2016 at 3:13 PM.
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Old 15th September 2016, 5:32 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by partybear View Post
So I have no nostalgia for them at all to me they look ugly. What is the obsession with them?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Each to their own I guess.

I'm having fun
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Old 15th September 2016, 6:10 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by badmofo View Post
I think you need to take a deep breath and remember that we're talking about computer games here, not something that really matters. 'Most people' aren't lazy, ignorant idiots, they're just not rabid fanatics so good enough is good enough
OK, I'll own that one. It was a shit day and I was short on coffee. My apologies.

I made a comment in the audio forum on the same topic. Dudes there were getting very upset about the low quality DACs supplied with onboard motherboards, and how people who couldn't hear the difference were terrible.

My comment was in a similar vein: people aren't terrible, per se, but rather some are pedantic about the things they care about, and others not so much. Indeed, I said in that very thread that I'm super pedantic about CRTs and outputs low resolution images, and here's me getting all upset about exactly that. How ironic.

So I take it back. People aren't idiots about this. They just don't care, and that's OK. I do care, and that's OK too.

(FWIW, that's the second cranky, decaffeinated post I've made on these forums in as many weeks, so I'll tighten up the pre-post coffee regime next time and settle down a bit).

Last edited by elvis; 19th September 2016 at 6:43 PM.
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Old 15th September 2016, 6:47 PM   #10
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I get an "access denied" on that one. Do you have another link?
The image is:


Click to view full size!


Point taken I guess if you played nes over composite as a kid. Your c64 would not have looked like that if you had the commodore monitor, and the games at Timezone definitely didn't look like that. It's an image from 4chan, says it all really.
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Old 15th September 2016, 8:08 PM   #11
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Here is a funny post I found of a guy with a nice tv purposely making it look worse to get that hipster scanline look you like.

https://www.reddit.com/r/retrogaming...tron_tutorial/

You can't even make out the scanlines in his first photo and this is on a nice sony trinitron. He has to sabotage the screen settings to get it to show them.

I'm in the age group where arcades were at their prime and my memory of arcade monitors is of them being funny colors most of the time haha. You know like when a magnet is near a screen.
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Old 15th September 2016, 8:09 PM   #12
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None of those images are accurate, for a bunch of reasons specific to NES hardware.
If you want to be semi accutate, the c64 monitors back in the day were around 600 tv line 14" monitors with RGB/S-video and composite inputs. The c64 did S-Video natively.

I have 2 14" PVMs, a 500 line PVM-14N6 (1998) and an 800 line PVM-14L5 (2005).

Here are some screens of both with my real childhood c64 attached via S-Video:

On the N6:

Click to view full size!


Click to view full size!


Click to view full size!


On the L5 (obviously being from 2005 this is not period correct, just here as porn):

Click to view full size!


Click to view full size!


Pretty visible scanlines on both. Even on my crappy iphone5 camera.

I'm not too sure how the 1998 PVM 14N6 compares with the commodore monitors from the 80's but the N6 has less TV lines. The truth is probably somewhere between these two.

Perhaps as kids our parents couldn't afford the things in the computer store showrooms (mine certainly couldn't) and we went home to play them over RF on the family woodgrain HMV telly and were super happy. It's also fun as a grown up to be able to play them like they were in the showroom.
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Old 15th September 2016, 8:32 PM   #13
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I don't recall seeing it ever discussed on here

whats peoples thoughts on the cheaty effects developers used that relied on colour bleed/etc on a composite output

for example the transparency of Sonic's shield

http://imgur.com/a/JS63b


does a legit RGB monitor with the original hardware scanlines produce the effect?
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Old 15th September 2016, 8:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis View Post
People aren't idiots about this. They just don't care, and that's OK. I do care, and that's OK too.
I bet everyone on this forum is guilty of getting a little pedantic about their specific interest from time to time and there should be more of it IMHO, the world would spin a little easier if we all had a hobby.

I also bet that everyone here's gone on the odd pre-coffee rant too I hope you have a better Friday
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Old 15th September 2016, 8:51 PM   #15
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I just get the feeling you don't even know what your talking about half the time elvis. That tv isn't even a 100hz tv, and even if it is the setting his changing isn't disabling it. Feels like you just always say the same thing like your just reading from a script.

My comment about the arcades being wrong colours was not not understanding why they are like that. I was just saying most operators didn't give a crap/didn't have time and the picture of the majority of arcade machines were just really bad.

The 100hz crts were actually legit 100hz the motion flow is more from the lcd era anyway. I can't see any reason for a crt to have it since it helps a problem unique to lcds.
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