To all people thinking of playing with 240V

Baker · 28th June 2003, 10:31 AM

In the past few months, I've been alarmed to see the willingness of people in here to play with 240V. When myself and other members have responded, telling them of the legality of it, they normally respond with abuse. I am a member of the Electrical Trade Union, and in the member brochure they've got a feature named "Stop Dodgy DIY". I thought I'd reproduce part of this here, so that hopefully people will read it, and think.

Did you know?

It is illegal to install or replace a power point, light fitting, or any appliance that requires any wiring unless you are a qualified electrician
Your house and contents insurance could be worthless if the insurance company finds out that any electrical work has been done without the certificate of a qualified electrical engineer
33% of all house fires start from electrical faults
Even the pros can get hurt. 85% of qualified electricians have recieved a shock at some time in their working life

Vanessa Garbutt - Qualified Electrician
DIY - More pain than gain!

"Doing your own wiring is bloody dangerous because its so easy to stuff up. It only takes one faulty wire to zap someone or burn down a house. Not only is it illegal, your insurance is worthless, and you endanger your own life or the life of someone you love. Its just not worth the risk. Don't do it yourself - get a qualified professional in."

Its not worth doing jobs yourself. What you think is a harmless job that you've done just might not be.

Electricity is a killer. Your home and your familys lives might be at stake. Think about it - is it really worth it?

Symon · 29th June 2003, 1:40 PM

Heh, I wish I had a dollar for everytime I got zapped when I was an apprentice

I'd also add that we didn't make the rules, we didn't write the legislation. So if we inform you that you really shouldn't do something, abusing is pointless. If you don't like the rules, take it up with the relevant authority. What you do is your own responsibility, but be very aware of the consequences.

(When I say "we" I mean those who have electrical licences)

Gnuthad · 29th June 2003, 1:59 PM

Whilst I am not yet in possession of my electrical license I am well on the way towards getting it, being at 3rd yr level in TAFE. I will admit to doing my own wiring around my house, but even I am not stupid enough to actually connect up new circuits myself. For that I have my brother-in-law with his full license come over, check my work, tell me to fix any stuff-ups I make (none...yet) and then connect the circuit.

I, like most electricians/apprentices have touched 240 and, in my case, I was extremely lucky to have not died from it. I was working on a piece of live equipment (required for the testing) with one arm resting on the chassis when I slipped and managed to just touch the live conductor with the other hand. The conductor had about 1mm showing beyond the heatshrink covering because the heatshrink had moved slightly when the conductor was bent so I could work on the appliance.

I distinctly remember feeling the 240V pulses right across my chest and thinking to myself "This doesn't feel right" before yanking my hand away from the live conductor. I doubt the whole episode lasted more than a fraction of a second but I was left rather breathless and with little muscle control in my upper body for a couple of hours afterward.

An uncle out pruning his trees near his house lead-in was not so lucky when he managed to just nick the insulation whilst standing on the top of his 10' ladder.

Another relative was also not so lucky when he slipped from an elevated walkway at a power station and fell across the 300,000V lines.

Aaron_85 · 29th June 2003, 7:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gnuthad
<snip> I was working on a piece of live equipment (required for the testing)
<snip>

no days it is very illegal for anyone to work on anything live, unles u have one of these rubber mats and these thick rubber gloves, and if your working with live busbars u gotta have these huge aprons on and barriers up. mind you ill admit that i have and the tradesmen i work with often work on live stuff without all the crap cause it is inpractical to whip out all the safety gear for it or to turn the power off. the best shock tho is 1000v from insulation testers

Gnuthad · 29th June 2003, 9:08 PM

I was working on an amplifier which had mains hum in it even after twisting the power cables and doing everything I could think of to reduce the interference. I accidentally touched the unfused side of the fuse with my finger.

goose202 · 29th June 2003, 9:38 PM

I'm in SA, but I assume the rules are national? I've got a hypothetical (

) question for those here that know the rules.

You know those inline digital timer switches? Well, if I had one that the electronics went kaput on, and so I removed all the (low voltage) electronics parts, connected the coil side of the 240V relay to my computer PSU 12V, is this legal? As you can see, none of the 240V side of things has been touched.

Slain · 29th June 2003, 11:10 PM

So, is it legal to work on 240v appliances/equipment?

Gnuthad · 29th June 2003, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Slain
So, is it legal to work on 240v appliances/equipment?

Depending on how the device is connected to the power and which state you are in, possibly. Queensland requires a license to do ANY work on 240V equipment regardless. Other states are not quite as restrictive (yet) and most allow you to work un pluggable equipment (as opposed to fixed wired) without an electrical license. If the equipment is to be installed with fixed wiring you must have a license to legally do work on the equipment.

Gnuthad · 29th June 2003, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by goose202
I'm in SA, but I assume the rules are national? I've got a hypothetical ( ) question for those here that know the rules.

You know those inline digital timer switches? Well, if I had one that the electronics went kaput on, and so I removed all the (low voltage) electronics parts, connected the coil side of the 240V relay to my computer PSU 12V, is this legal? As you can see, none of the 240V side of things has been touched.

Plugs into the outlet? Should be legal but I can't see exactly what you've done so I can't say for sure.

rickbishop · 30th June 2003, 3:01 AM

Whilst I am not a "qualified" sparky, I do have 10 years of experience in working with electrical systems, and I probably have more knowledge and experience than 80% of electricians out there. Not many sparkies can say that they regularly wire up systems that use 500,000 watts of power!

However, safety is always paramount. Because of my work, and the mount of power that I deal with, any fault is life threatening, so my work is always triple-checked. Hell, even when I have a licenced sparky working for me, I triple-check HIS work. I've seen some pretty wrong stuff done by people that are supposed to know better.

caughtup · 30th June 2003, 10:39 AM

As a former sparky. I got electrocuted by a 240v rail which went live without my consent and knowledge. I put a warning tag containing my name and phone number wired to the central switch.

Fuck, it was nasty and has had minor burns on my right wrist. Once I got electrocuted and I had to think mentally to pull myself out as quick as I can otherwise the muscles in my arm will contract itself and would be unable to release it.

An offender was charged by workcover authority and was subsquently fired by a construction company.

Bort · 30th June 2003, 11:25 AM

I may be swapping power supplies in my IPCop box, which uses an AT power supply. The power switch has mains wires running to it. I have never tried doing anything with it before, because of that fact. Would it be illegal to install a new power supply, because of the 240V switch that AT supplies use?

SpeedRacer · 30th June 2003, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bort
I may be swapping power supplies in my IPCop box, which uses an AT power supply. The power switch has mains wires running to it. I have never tried doing anything with it before, because of that fact. Would it be illegal to install a new power supply, because of the 240V switch that AT supplies use?

If swapping with another AT supply then I would say so, yes! This is a large part of the reason why ATx power supplies are now used.

If you remove the AT supply and install an ATx supply then I think the lines are a bit blurrier there. Quite possibly still illegal in definition. Its obviously far safer than replacing it with another AT supply, since all the deadly stuff is contained in the box of an ATx supply which you shouldnt be opening.

kryzak260 · 30th June 2003, 1:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baker
[*]Even the pros can get hurt. 85% of qualified electricians have recieved a shock at some time in their working life

This reminds me of an incident i was told about. I work part time in a powerstation getting experience, so i hear some very interesting stories of stupidity.

In a Powerstation in SA (from memory) there was a major refit happening on the prime mover, so during this, there was alot of other work going on. There was a faulty Auxilliary Transformer CB onsite that needed to be repaired. It was an 11kV CB that supplied 11kV to the aux transformer to step-down to 415V. Anyway, the Electrical Engineer that was trying to fix it, pulled the cover off it to look at it, and crawled into the enclosure!

Lets just say there wasent much left of him besides the crack in the wall opposite the CB from when he touched the live 11kV contactor!

So yeah, even the pros (and not so pro but still licenced

) get zapped. I am stunned at some of the shit some people say they are going to do with 240V in these forums. Good on ya for bringing it up Baker...

Sojourner · 30th June 2003, 3:19 PM

I believe that the ruling is usually that you're allowed to install computer power supplies simply because you arent wiring up 240V yourself. All the connections have been made for you inside the PSU unit itself.

That said beware of cheap AT PSU's because they have a "hard" power switch (ie: not momentary contact like ATX) and if the switch isnt insulated properly you can receive a 240V shock if you're not careful.

ATX keeps all 240V inside the PSU and therefore are much safer.

In reality its not the volts that kill you but rather the amps.

In most states you have two levels of electrical licences:
(i) For full qualified electricians

Fully qualified electricians can work on equipment that has live components and can also wire up your house, or install industrial equipment.

(ii) A restricted licence for tradesmen involved with but not directly qualified as electricians.

Restricted tradesmen have trained as part of their apprenticeship to deal with electricity. ie: Refrigeration mechanics. They are usually however restricted to appliance work where the entire machine has to be disconnected from the wall to work on it.

You have to be fully trained to receive either of these licences.

Please check with your own states laws. All information provided here is based on my experience growing up as the son of a successful electrician - thats all - but having grown up with electricity I know what its capable of.

One of my earliest memories was watching my father being bounced by a 3 phase compressor off the unit and against the wall of a corrugated iron shed only to land back on top of the live compressor again - eventually being spat out over the top of it. One of the "tradesmen" he'd hired hadnt wired it up correctly and made the unit live. In those days it was assumed that if you said you were an electrician you didnt need to check their licence. Needless to say things have changed and you take nothing for granted.

28th June 2003, 10:31 AM	#1
Baker (Spanked or Maltreated) Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Newcastle Posts: 3,774	To all people thinking of playing with 240V In the past few months, I've been alarmed to see the willingness of people in here to play with 240V. When myself and other members have responded, telling them of the legality of it, they normally respond with abuse. I am a member of the Electrical Trade Union, and in the member brochure they've got a feature named "Stop Dodgy DIY". I thought I'd reproduce part of this here, so that hopefully people will read it, and think. Did you know? It is illegal to install or replace a power point, light fitting, or any appliance that requires any wiring unless you are a qualified electrician Your house and contents insurance could be worthless if the insurance company finds out that any electrical work has been done without the certificate of a qualified electrical engineer 33% of all house fires start from electrical faults Even the pros can get hurt. 85% of qualified electricians have recieved a shock at some time in their working life Vanessa Garbutt - Qualified Electrician DIY - More pain than gain! "Doing your own wiring is bloody dangerous because its so easy to stuff up. It only takes one faulty wire to zap someone or burn down a house. Not only is it illegal, your insurance is worthless, and you endanger your own life or the life of someone you love. Its just not worth the risk. Don't do it yourself - get a qualified professional in." Its not worth doing jobs yourself. What you think is a harmless job that you've done just might not be. Electricity is a killer. Your home and your familys lives might be at stake. Think about it - is it really worth it? __________________ "And the man in the rain picked up his bag of secrets, and journeyed up the mountainside, far above the clouds, and nothing was ever heard from him again, except for the sounds of Tubular Bells" Ma Baker and Bakers Trading list. Lets go Clubbing - clubMINI now launched Australia Wide!!!

29th June 2003, 9:38 PM	#6
goose202 Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Adelaide, SA Posts: 627	I'm in SA, but I assume the rules are national? I've got a hypothetical ( ) question for those here that know the rules. You know those inline digital timer switches? Well, if I had one that the electronics went kaput on, and so I removed all the (low voltage) electronics parts, connected the coil side of the 240V relay to my computer PSU 12V, is this legal? As you can see, none of the 240V side of things has been touched. __________________ "Persons having high blood pressure, a back or heart condition, or who are pregnant should not use this card, the unmatched graphic quality may be too exhilerating and realistic for the weak of heart." - XFX GeForce4 MX440SE Packaging.

30th June 2003, 3:01 AM	#10
rickbishop Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Darwin Posts: 3,951	Whilst I am not a "qualified" sparky, I do have 10 years of experience in working with electrical systems, and I probably have more knowledge and experience than 80% of electricians out there. Not many sparkies can say that they regularly wire up systems that use 500,000 watts of power! However, safety is always paramount. Because of my work, and the mount of power that I deal with, any fault is life threatening, so my work is always triple-checked. Hell, even when I have a licenced sparky working for me, I triple-check HIS work. I've seen some pretty wrong stuff done by people that are supposed to know better. __________________ How to win arguments on the internet 101: continue dribbling stupidly until the intelligent people give up in disgust. Dear Admins: if you're going to edit or delete my posts, please send me a PM explaining why. www.nuclearlx.com

30th June 2003, 11:25 AM	#12
Bort Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,128	I may be swapping power supplies in my IPCop box, which uses an AT power supply. The power switch has mains wires running to it. I have never tried doing anything with it before, because of that fact. Would it be illegal to install a new power supply, because of the 240V switch that AT supplies use? __________________ Blog \|\| Flickr Intel Q9300 \| Gigabyte P35-DS3L \| 4GB Patriot 6400C4 \| Gigabyte GeForce 8600GT \| Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000 HDD

29th June 2003, 1:59 PM	#3
Gnuthad Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,638	Whilst I am not yet in possession of my electrical license I am well on the way towards getting it, being at 3rd yr level in TAFE. I will admit to doing my own wiring around my house, but even I am not stupid enough to actually connect up new circuits myself. For that I have my brother-in-law with his full license come over, check my work, tell me to fix any stuff-ups I make (none...yet) and then connect the circuit. I, like most electricians/apprentices have touched 240 and, in my case, I was extremely lucky to have not died from it. I was working on a piece of live equipment (required for the testing) with one arm resting on the chassis when I slipped and managed to just touch the live conductor with the other hand. The conductor had about 1mm showing beyond the heatshrink covering because the heatshrink had moved slightly when the conductor was bent so I could work on the appliance. I distinctly remember feeling the 240V pulses right across my chest and thinking to myself "This doesn't feel right" before yanking my hand away from the live conductor. I doubt the whole episode lasted more than a fraction of a second but I was left rather breathless and with little muscle control in my upper body for a couple of hours afterward. An uncle out pruning his trees near his house lead-in was not so lucky when he managed to just nick the insulation whilst standing on the top of his 10' ladder. Another relative was also not so lucky when he slipped from an elevated walkway at a power station and fell across the 300,000V lines.

29th June 2003, 9:08 PM	#5
Gnuthad Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,638	I was working on an amplifier which had mains hum in it even after twisting the power cables and doing everything I could think of to reduce the interference. I accidentally touched the unfused side of the fuse with my finger.

29th June 2003, 11:10 PM	#7
Slain (Banned or Deleted) Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Perth Posts: 881	So, is it legal to work on 240v appliances/equipment?

30th June 2003, 10:39 AM	#11
caughtup Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 374	As a former sparky. I got electrocuted by a 240v rail which went live without my consent and knowledge. I put a warning tag containing my name and phone number wired to the central switch. Fuck, it was nasty and has had minor burns on my right wrist. Once I got electrocuted and I had to think mentally to pull myself out as quick as I can otherwise the muscles in my arm will contract itself and would be unable to release it. An offender was charged by workcover authority and was subsquently fired by a construction company.

30th June 2003, 3:19 PM	#15
Sojourner Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Darwin, NT Posts: 104	I believe that the ruling is usually that you're allowed to install computer power supplies simply because you arent wiring up 240V yourself. All the connections have been made for you inside the PSU unit itself. That said beware of cheap AT PSU's because they have a "hard" power switch (ie: not momentary contact like ATX) and if the switch isnt insulated properly you can receive a 240V shock if you're not careful. ATX keeps all 240V inside the PSU and therefore are much safer. In reality its not the volts that kill you but rather the amps. In most states you have two levels of electrical licences: (i) For full qualified electricians Fully qualified electricians can work on equipment that has live components and can also wire up your house, or install industrial equipment. (ii) A restricted licence for tradesmen involved with but not directly qualified as electricians. Restricted tradesmen have trained as part of their apprenticeship to deal with electricity. ie: Refrigeration mechanics. They are usually however restricted to appliance work where the entire machine has to be disconnected from the wall to work on it. You have to be fully trained to receive either of these licences. Please check with your own states laws. All information provided here is based on my experience growing up as the son of a successful electrician - thats all - but having grown up with electricity I know what its capable of. One of my earliest memories was watching my father being bounced by a 3 phase compressor off the unit and against the wall of a corrugated iron shed only to land back on top of the live compressor again - eventually being spat out over the top of it. One of the "tradesmen" he'd hired hadnt wired it up correctly and made the unit live. In those days it was assumed that if you said you were an electrician you didnt need to check their licence. Needless to say things have changed and you take nothing for granted.