To all people thinking of playing with 240V - Page 7

LethalCorpse · 30th July 2003, 3:01 PM

The main reason you need an austel license to do low voltage comms wiring is not to protect you or your equipment, it's to protect equipment belonging to the telcos and businesses that are connected to the network. If you manage to screw up your phone wiring, and blow up a telstra box outside your house, austel will put pointy things in uncomfortable parts of your anatomy.

Same as 240V wiring though, you're not going to blow stuff up if you're careful and know what you're doing, but on your head be it if you do.

punktured · 30th July 2003, 5:05 PM

at then end of the day ppl are still going to work with 240v but ignoring ppl who ask advice about it isn't going to help. i'm against DIY work on mains power but i'd rather tell somebody how to isolate the circuit properly if they are too stuburn to get a E Grade then end up as another victim

Xierion · 1st August 2003, 9:15 AM

There are plenty of bold electricians, and plenty of old electricians, but not many bold, old electricians

LethalCorpse · 1st August 2003, 10:26 AM

very true, but "unlicensed" does not mean "bold"

Symon · 1st August 2003, 11:31 AM

There are two main reasons why I don't support unqualified work on anything above ELV (apart from legalities). They are:

1. Insulation
2. Earthing

The thing that shits me off when looking at some of the posts placed on this modding forum and others around the net is people's ignorance in these two critical areas. Insulation is an easy thing to understand, put some heatshrink or electrical tape around it so you don't short onto anything (especially yourself) and all is good. So why do people show so much apathy to it?

However earthing is something different. I think the problem there is that most people don't understand why earthing is so important. And hence it's often neglected. Mr Average doesn't understand where earthing is needed, and how to install it correctly.

LethalCorpse · 1st August 2003, 11:46 AM

fair enough, there are some people who don't place enough importance on earthing and insulation, but there are lots more who do. Everyone I learnt from and everyone I've worked with has been careful to insulate and earth every job. You don't need to be a sparky to know that if you don't insulate stuff you will get zapped, and if you don't earth chassis that aren't double insulated, you will also probably get zapped.

Symon · 1st August 2003, 12:08 PM

Most people would be able to work out that if you don't have insulation you are at a risk of getting zapped. I have no issues with that, except when people just don't bother doing it.

However with earthing, I think you will find that a vast majority of people don't understand it. Obviously if you have received some kind of training (electrical, electronics or otherwise) then you would know. Most people don't, and (get ready with the flamethrower.... ) I don't think most computer people know either. I shudder everytime I look at this thing which seems to be quite popular with the watercooling community.

Xierion · 1st August 2003, 12:30 PM

Hmm... scary

One more reason why I'm not a fan of water cooling. That and the water itself. to me, water and electricity don't mix so well.

LethalCorpse · 1st August 2003, 1:36 PM

There's no dedicated earthing on that device, but it's tied to earth through the computer chassis, isn't it? Unless you've got acrylic case of course.

Symon · 1st August 2003, 2:13 PM

The computer chassis is earthed ONLY when the PSU is plugged in via it's own IEC lead. Since that contraption has no earth connection, you can have the situation where a fault might occur and liven up the chassis if the PSU is unplugged.

And no, it is not good enough to say "but it will only be on when the computer is on".

In addition, it also brings single insulated (or not insulated) low voltage into an ELV enclosure, so technically speaking you will need an electrical qualification to make alterations in there. Hence defeating one of the purposes of going to ATX PSU's.

The_SeNTiNeL · 1st August 2003, 6:39 PM

I cant believe some of the stuff people attempt either. A lot of threads "less on OCAU then others" fail to explain the dangers of carring out some of the mods they document.

I remember when I was about 5 years old, we had a really old TV that was sitting in our shed and according to my dad, hadn't been turned on or plugged in for over 10 years. Anyway he decided to try and fix it and as I was watching, he bridged one of the caps with a 7mm thick screwdriver and there was a massive flash and when our eyes came good again from the flash there was 5cm missing off the end of the screwdriver. It had totally gone. It wasn't just blown off. It was obliterated!!! Ever since then you wont see me messing with 240V appliances!!!!!!!

Hopefully that little story will teach any kiddies in here not to mess with mains. Unfortunately I think the reason why kids do it is because they know its dangerous so therefore they think it makes them cool. Sad really.

I really dont understand why everyone is fighting over all this "how much power is enough to kill you" crap. It is starting to look very much like everyone is just trying to prove a point and look smart or something. Yeah good stuff!!!!!

Basically if you have no previous electrical experience I dont think you should be messing with anything that isn't powered by batters that you can buy in a supermarket!!! Having said that, I wouldn't reccoment sticking your tongue on a 6v Dolphin torch battery!!

gregzeng · 15th August 2003, 3:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sefu88
I never GO inside PSU, TV's or anything i know that can kill me if you dont know what you are doing.

I stick to the safe shit like setting up computers, hifi equipment etc.

CITY SLICKERS are so very lucky ... instanteous, affordable sparlies, on call, at all hours, at short notice.

Sometimes if you look inside a "dead" gadget (eg printer, monitor, etc), you'll see a simple Dick-Smith/ Tandy fuse. So you can go to the local garage, and just replace the fuse.

The idiocy is that the manufacturers of the equipment don't document on paper, nor on the outside of the case, that there is a simple, replacable fuse inside. When I find this to be the case, I write in waterproof pen, on the outside, that the fuse is inside. And I tape a good replacement fuse inside the case.

Now ... sparkies ... you tell us ... you need many years of recognized qualifications before you can replace a fuse !!!

After thought: some beginners might not be aware of any high voltages, or capacitors, or to properly disconnect the power supply. Also, over-cleaning the dirt inside, etc might upset some other parts inside the case.

But I think that those of us who have built electronic kits can sometimes look inside our electronic & electrical gadgets.

Symon · 15th August 2003, 5:06 PM

The manufacturer's usually put a label on the outside that says, "Do not open cover, no user serviceable parts inside". As to wether a fuse is a user serviceable part is up for debate. The problem is (and this is why semi-enclosed re-wireable fuses, or "SERF's" are no longer used in houses) is that there is no guarantee that the fuse will correctly replaced. There is no guarantee that when a fuse is blown that the user would replace it with the correctly rated replacement, instead of say, a bit of wire or a chopped off nail.

That is why in this day and age (especially in terms of litigation) that manufacturer's simply say that in order to replace a fuse that you need to be a qualified service person. That way they cover their butt and are free from prosecution.

Instead of blaming the manufacturers, or the servicepeople themselves, you should be focusing your critisims at lawyers, insurance companies and the general mass of stupid people who have forced these kind of silly restrictions to be implemented.

LethalCorpse · 15th August 2003, 5:19 PM

Greg I think the point is that it's difficult to determine at what point a person is capable enough to replace a fuse, or a cap or whatever. You might be capable, and I might be capable, but there are also a lot of mugs out there that aren't, and could get themselves blown up, and there's nothing to distinguish us from them. The only way the law has to distinguish between guys that know what they're doing and guys that don't is certification. Otherwise there's no way to assess a handyman's abilities, to demonstrate that he's got more than three synapses to rub together when changing a fuse. The law must protect idiots (read as people who haven't got a piece of paper to say they should know better) from themselves. However, that screws the rest of us who are competent but occasionally need a bit of advice to reassure ourselves that what our intuition and experience tells us is correct from a qualified point of view. It's easy enough from the sparkies' point of view to uphold and attempt to enforce the law, because it's on their side - they've got the piece of paper. They've also, however, got something the law hasn't - the ability to gauge the extent to which a guy knows what he's talking about, and is likely to blow himself up - and I'd like to see them using it a bit more.

Gnuthad · 15th August 2003, 10:22 PM

Whilst I will agree in part with your comments greg, there is one thing you neglected to mention, that being the dangers of stored charge in the capacitors found in a typical power supply. Whilst a fuse may merely need replacement, it is quite possible for the replacer to accidentally touch the live side of the caps thereby making themselves part of the ~340V circuit with the resulting consequences. This is, of course, assuming the fuse has not blown due to an inherant fault in the circuit and one that, if the fuse is replaced, would not produce an unsafe piece of equipment to the user.

I applaud manufacturers that make the serviceman's life easier with adequate cable lengths, easily replaceable fuses and srew-down cases rather than plastic-welded cases, but this also means that the inexperienced will be more tempted to fiddle with the potentially lethal equipment.

30th July 2003, 3:01 PM	#91
LethalCorpse Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Harris Park, NSW Posts: 3,799	The main reason you need an austel license to do low voltage comms wiring is not to protect you or your equipment, it's to protect equipment belonging to the telcos and businesses that are connected to the network. If you manage to screw up your phone wiring, and blow up a telstra box outside your house, austel will put pointy things in uncomfortable parts of your anatomy. Same as 240V wiring though, you're not going to blow stuff up if you're careful and know what you're doing, but on your head be it if you do. __________________ Sig Of Shame removed.

1st August 2003, 10:26 AM	#94
LethalCorpse Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Harris Park, NSW Posts: 3,799	very true, but "unlicensed" does not mean "bold" __________________ Sig Of Shame removed.

1st August 2003, 11:31 AM	#95
Symon (Plugging your Socket) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Brisbane QLD Posts: 2,823	There are two main reasons why I don't support unqualified work on anything above ELV (apart from legalities). They are: 1. Insulation 2. Earthing The thing that shits me off when looking at some of the posts placed on this modding forum and others around the net is people's ignorance in these two critical areas. Insulation is an easy thing to understand, put some heatshrink or electrical tape around it so you don't short onto anything (especially yourself) and all is good. So why do people show so much apathy to it? However earthing is something different. I think the problem there is that most people don't understand why earthing is so important. And hence it's often neglected. Mr Average doesn't understand where earthing is needed, and how to install it correctly. __________________ DISCLAIMER - The mindless babble of this post does not constitute professional advice. I will not be held responsible if you choose to act on this advice. Unless I tell you to eat jellybeans, everyone likes jellybeans OCAU's self-appointed electrical safety expert - Founder of the bakasan Technical College - enrollments welcome. -- My Web Server in a Box Last edited by Symon; 1st August 2003 at 11:33 AM.

1st August 2003, 11:46 AM	#96
LethalCorpse Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Harris Park, NSW Posts: 3,799	fair enough, there are some people who don't place enough importance on earthing and insulation, but there are lots more who do. Everyone I learnt from and everyone I've worked with has been careful to insulate and earth every job. You don't need to be a sparky to know that if you don't insulate stuff you will get zapped, and if you don't earth chassis that aren't double insulated, you will also probably get zapped. __________________ Sig Of Shame removed.

1st August 2003, 12:08 PM	#97
Symon (Plugging your Socket) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Brisbane QLD Posts: 2,823	Most people would be able to work out that if you don't have insulation you are at a risk of getting zapped. I have no issues with that, except when people just don't bother doing it. However with earthing, I think you will find that a vast majority of people don't understand it. Obviously if you have received some kind of training (electrical, electronics or otherwise) then you would know. Most people don't, and (get ready with the flamethrower.... ) I don't think most computer people know either. I shudder everytime I look at this thing which seems to be quite popular with the watercooling community. __________________ DISCLAIMER - The mindless babble of this post does not constitute professional advice. I will not be held responsible if you choose to act on this advice. Unless I tell you to eat jellybeans, everyone likes jellybeans OCAU's self-appointed electrical safety expert - Founder of the bakasan Technical College - enrollments welcome. -- My Web Server in a Box

30th July 2003, 5:05 PM	#92
punktured Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: melb Posts: 288	at then end of the day ppl are still going to work with 240v but ignoring ppl who ask advice about it isn't going to help. i'm against DIY work on mains power but i'd rather tell somebody how to isolate the circuit properly if they are too stuburn to get a E Grade then end up as another victim

1st August 2003, 9:15 AM	#93
Xierion Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 3	There are plenty of bold electricians, and plenty of old electricians, but not many bold, old electricians

1st August 2003, 12:30 PM	#98
Xierion Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 3	Hmm... scary One more reason why I'm not a fan of water cooling. That and the water itself. to me, water and electricity don't mix so well.

1st August 2003, 1:36 PM	#99
LethalCorpse Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Harris Park, NSW Posts: 3,799	There's no dedicated earthing on that device, but it's tied to earth through the computer chassis, isn't it? Unless you've got acrylic case of course. __________________ Sig Of Shame removed.

1st August 2003, 2:13 PM	#100
Symon (Plugging your Socket) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Brisbane QLD Posts: 2,823	The computer chassis is earthed ONLY when the PSU is plugged in via it's own IEC lead. Since that contraption has no earth connection, you can have the situation where a fault might occur and liven up the chassis if the PSU is unplugged. And no, it is not good enough to say "but it will only be on when the computer is on". In addition, it also brings single insulated (or not insulated) low voltage into an ELV enclosure, so technically speaking you will need an electrical qualification to make alterations in there. Hence defeating one of the purposes of going to ATX PSU's. __________________ DISCLAIMER - The mindless babble of this post does not constitute professional advice. I will not be held responsible if you choose to act on this advice. Unless I tell you to eat jellybeans, everyone likes jellybeans OCAU's self-appointed electrical safety expert - Founder of the bakasan Technical College - enrollments welcome. -- My Web Server in a Box Last edited by Symon; 1st August 2003 at 6:08 PM.

1st August 2003, 6:39 PM	#101
The_SeNTiNeL Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Sydney Posts: 238	I cant believe some of the stuff people attempt either. A lot of threads "less on OCAU then others" fail to explain the dangers of carring out some of the mods they document. I remember when I was about 5 years old, we had a really old TV that was sitting in our shed and according to my dad, hadn't been turned on or plugged in for over 10 years. Anyway he decided to try and fix it and as I was watching, he bridged one of the caps with a 7mm thick screwdriver and there was a massive flash and when our eyes came good again from the flash there was 5cm missing off the end of the screwdriver. It had totally gone. It wasn't just blown off. It was obliterated!!! Ever since then you wont see me messing with 240V appliances!!!!!!! Hopefully that little story will teach any kiddies in here not to mess with mains. Unfortunately I think the reason why kids do it is because they know its dangerous so therefore they think it makes them cool. Sad really. I really dont understand why everyone is fighting over all this "how much power is enough to kill you" crap. It is starting to look very much like everyone is just trying to prove a point and look smart or something. Yeah good stuff!!!!! Basically if you have no previous electrical experience I dont think you should be messing with anything that isn't powered by batters that you can buy in a supermarket!!! Having said that, I wouldn't reccoment sticking your tongue on a 6v Dolphin torch battery!!

15th August 2003, 5:06 PM	#103
Symon (Plugging your Socket) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Brisbane QLD Posts: 2,823	The manufacturer's usually put a label on the outside that says, "Do not open cover, no user serviceable parts inside". As to wether a fuse is a user serviceable part is up for debate. The problem is (and this is why semi-enclosed re-wireable fuses, or "SERF's" are no longer used in houses) is that there is no guarantee that the fuse will correctly replaced. There is no guarantee that when a fuse is blown that the user would replace it with the correctly rated replacement, instead of say, a bit of wire or a chopped off nail. That is why in this day and age (especially in terms of litigation) that manufacturer's simply say that in order to replace a fuse that you need to be a qualified service person. That way they cover their butt and are free from prosecution. Instead of blaming the manufacturers, or the servicepeople themselves, you should be focusing your critisims at lawyers, insurance companies and the general mass of stupid people who have forced these kind of silly restrictions to be implemented. __________________ DISCLAIMER - The mindless babble of this post does not constitute professional advice. I will not be held responsible if you choose to act on this advice. Unless I tell you to eat jellybeans, everyone likes jellybeans OCAU's self-appointed electrical safety expert - Founder of the bakasan Technical College - enrollments welcome. -- My Web Server in a Box

15th August 2003, 5:19 PM	#104
LethalCorpse Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Harris Park, NSW Posts: 3,799	Greg I think the point is that it's difficult to determine at what point a person is capable enough to replace a fuse, or a cap or whatever. You might be capable, and I might be capable, but there are also a lot of mugs out there that aren't, and could get themselves blown up, and there's nothing to distinguish us from them. The only way the law has to distinguish between guys that know what they're doing and guys that don't is certification. Otherwise there's no way to assess a handyman's abilities, to demonstrate that he's got more than three synapses to rub together when changing a fuse. The law must protect idiots (read as people who haven't got a piece of paper to say they should know better) from themselves. However, that screws the rest of us who are competent but occasionally need a bit of advice to reassure ourselves that what our intuition and experience tells us is correct from a qualified point of view. It's easy enough from the sparkies' point of view to uphold and attempt to enforce the law, because it's on their side - they've got the piece of paper. They've also, however, got something the law hasn't - the ability to gauge the extent to which a guy knows what he's talking about, and is likely to blow himself up - and I'd like to see them using it a bit more. __________________ Sig Of Shame removed.

15th August 2003, 10:22 PM	#105
Gnuthad Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,638	Whilst I will agree in part with your comments greg, there is one thing you neglected to mention, that being the dangers of stored charge in the capacitors found in a typical power supply. Whilst a fuse may merely need replacement, it is quite possible for the replacer to accidentally touch the live side of the caps thereby making themselves part of the ~340V circuit with the resulting consequences. This is, of course, assuming the fuse has not blown due to an inherant fault in the circuit and one that, if the fuse is replaced, would not produce an unsafe piece of equipment to the user. I applaud manufacturers that make the serviceman's life easier with adequate cable lengths, easily replaceable fuses and srew-down cases rather than plastic-welded cases, but this also means that the inexperienced will be more tempted to fiddle with the potentially lethal equipment.