Ultra power efficent desktops

[Phido]

I am moving out to a place that has no grid electricity, no net access etc.

Im interested in getting a low cost, ultra low power desktop, that can provide processing power when needed (Photoshop, 3DSMax, scientific applications, compiling, gaming) and ultra low power consumption when required (word, data entry, basic stuff, playing retro games/emmulations). I want a max combined (inc video) of ~75w of power during peak performance and ~30w during light duty useage.

Given the choice of 754, 939, Pentium, Pentium M what would you choose.

At the moment Im leaning towards 939 with a 3200+ and 6100 or 6150 motherboard. But while overclocking info on boards is easy to find, underclocking info is extremely sketchy.

I would instantly get a 754 board if it was avalible with 6150 level of onboard graphics and a PCIE slot simply due to the 25 w turion processors.

[vindicator]

I'm currently replacing my gear with low power gear.

I think 75 is a little too optimistic if you want to be able to play games and do rendering.

In my opinion, a turion coupled with a 6100 or ati xpress motherboard is the best option at the moment.

The problem with using Turions on the desktop, is that your motherboard must support them, and not every one does. There is actually a bit of politics behind this...

MSI make some boards that support Turions.

K8NGM-V : 6100 based.
http://www.msi.com.tw/program/produc...il.php?UID=701

RS480M : ATI X200 based.
http://www.msi.com.tw/program/produc...UID=682&kind=1

You could allways add a PCIe16 GFX card.
Here is an article showing the power usage of various cards.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/vid...ption2006.html

Note that the 6600 GDD2 pulls ~28w at full 3D load.



The board + CPU would probally consume 30-40W at full load (even with a 35W Turion).

So there's 70W at full load.

Add in a HDD, optical drive and you'd be really pushing it if your PSU maxed out at 75.

There are plenty of 120W DC-DC psus available. I'd really recommend using one of those and slackening your power requirements. Auspcmarket sell some, but you should be able to get them cheaper elsewhere.

If you didnt need a GFX card, and coudl make do with the onboard 6100 then I'd say 75W would be reasonable.




You would be able to achieve all this for under 75W this with a Dothan Pentium M setup, if you used one of the ULV processors (~12W TDP).

However they are super rare, and super expensive.

Also, there are no good cooling solutions available. Cooler master make some for embedded boards by Commel, but the Aopen PM boards use a custom heatsink setup, and the included ones are arse. Most owners report that their system idles at 60-70c. On a 20W cpu? Suck my balls Aopen.

If you were handy with a mill or bench drill, you could modify something generic like a Alpha heat sink. Some people use modified Zalman GPU coolers. There are some packages liek this in Japan, but good luck getting one here.

Most manufacturers are jumping on the Yonah bandwagon, so hopefully we'll see some good aftermarket cooler support. Yonah (Core Duo) would be a great option if you were willing to wait, but its all super expensive gear.

Turions can use pretty much any A64 cooler. Just make sure its nice and light as they dont have a heat spreader. MSI actually makes a heat spreader for them. Most people recommend the Zalman Alu coolers, and get between 30-35c. XP-90 looks good too.

Hope this helps.

FWIW, I'm getting the MSI K8 Board, Turion and a 6600GT. It's going in a modified Jaycar 3U rack with a DC-DC psu, slim optical and 2 SATA HDDs (for redundancy).

[vindicator]

BTW, 939 is really out of the questions as you are looking at MINIMUM 60W just for the processor at full load.

See:
http://balusc.xs4all.nl/srv/har-cpu-amd-k8.php

[Phido]

Very interesting.. Do you know anyone who can get you that MSI board in Australia?

I will be using onboard video for the time being. I've noticed the excellent power and performance of a 6600 DDR2. But onboard video is even more power efficent, Ive seen people claim ~45w total with a 6150 939 board and a CPU @ 1Ghz. Im also looking at 7300 and 7600 GPU's underclocked when upgrading sometime later in the year (when power is more avalible and so is money). In the mean time I can use that ~25w on the CPU.

My 75w targets are exactly that. With out targets I start specing 500w PSU's, SLI etc. But Im open to ideas. I will most likely use a 120w DC psu. something like

This 120w psu

I've ruled out intel stuff. For the prices they charge I could stick up another 120w solar panel and run a regular desktop. Same with Via, awesome power consumption, but no processing power and no value.

AMD is comming up trumps with ~$80 mobo and ~$200 CPU's.

I wouldn't belive that powerconsumption chart claiming at s754 2500 sempron uses the same watts as a Dual core 4400+..

[vindicator]

Originally Posted by Phido

Very interesting.. Do you know anyone who can get you that MSI board in Australia?

Not as yet. I don't think it has hit suppliers yet. Just got released.

Originally Posted by Phido

Ive seen people claim ~45w total with a 6150 939 board and a CPU @ 1Ghz. Im also looking at 7300 and 7600 GPU's underclocked when upgrading sometime later in the year (when power is more avalible and so is money). In the mean time I can use that ~25w on the CPU.

Got any links for this? Sounds very interesting!

Originally Posted by Phido

AMD is comming up trumps with ~$80 mobo and ~$200 CPU's.

Yeah, Best prefromance per watt per dollar.

Originally Posted by Phido

I wouldn't belive that powerconsumption chart claiming at s754 2500 sempron uses the same watts as a Dual core 4400+..

I'm pretty sure those TDPs are pulled from manufacturer specs.

I'd believe it. They porbally used two very efficient cores. Like two Turion cores in one.

[Phido]

The real astonishing feature of the system is its power efficiency and silence.
During office use if only consumes 45.9 watts on the primary side of the power supply (monitor not measured, cool and quiet active with processor slowed to 1Ghz). Fans spin at about 600 rpm (Seasonic s12-330, Arctic Silencer Ultra TC drawing air through a duct in the case side ). I would like to test if this value can still be reduced by using the bus disconnect feature but i found no information for this chipset. With tuxracer or chromium it uses about 65 Watts, processor still at 1Ghz. With glxgears it does max out at 83 Watts.

Clicky

So thats total power consumption I belive with PSU etc and alot of unknows (processor, mem, PCI's, PSU type etc). But is definately promising.

939 also allows upgrade to dual core processors.. I've also heard that a 3800+ x2 uses about 5w at idle @ 1Ghz. A 3800+ @ 1Ghz might actually make a interesting low power processor depending the software your running.
dual core at 1ghz may be faster in real world performance than a 1.6 or 1.8Ghz processor while using less power

I am still tempted by the 6150 S939. I like GbE and 4 dimms on most boards, not to mention 939 upgradability and Dual channel enhancing video performance. The DVI output on the 6150 is also a neat feature as the RAMDACs on intergrated solutions are notoriously bad.

Appart from some light gaming (mostly older stratergy stuff with my GF) and some 3d/data crunching, I could proberly live with a A64 clocked @ 500Mhz for basic word processing, reading, coding, weather logging, flicking through camera images, MP3's etc.

[DavoRulz]

Why do you need a desktop? Go for a mid-range lappy, should be easier to come in under your usage quota.

[Phido]

I will most likely get a laptop.. a older 2nd hand one..

But doing some figures I can throw a complete desktop together for not much over $600 inc screen. $900 if I turn it into my HTPC with a 20" wide screen (replacing my 80cm CRT TV at the moment).

It all comes down to money. The more I save the more solar/insulation/fridge/etc I get.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Phido

I would instantly get a 754 board if it was avalible with 6150 level of onboard graphics and a PCIE slot simply due to the 25 w turion processors.

This board is soon to be available in ITX format from someone like Aopen or something. Expensive though at over $400.

I would think a cheaper Centrino Dothan w/ a ATI9600 would be useful here if a bit expensive.

[Phido]

Given I can get a 6150 939 and a venice 3000+ for $100 and $180 and they aren't even the cheapest prices. Underclock the CPU and you can meet pretty much what ever targeted power you want. And you can upgrade to monsterously fast dual core 1mb 2.6+Mhz cores.

This is one of the reasons why desktop is more favourable than Laptop. Also I have a 80gb hd, 512mb ram, etc avalible so saving $'s there.

Im also going to be experimenting with running the CPU passively cooled. I know a AXP @ 600Mhz and low volts can be passively cooled or cooled from the system fan.

With pico DC-DC power supply, this means a completely fanless system. The only noise is from the HD and optical drives. Given agressive power management, and use of flash memory while working on files HD and Optical would not be spinning alot of the time.

I would like to goto ITX size tho. Cases are so much smaller. I find that generally mATX cases aren't much smaller than ATX, then again mATX isn't much smaller than ATX.

[Snoops]

(IF) Your main concern is power. Then there is no other option than a laptop. Get anything with a Nvidia or ATI card (some lappy's even let you switch off the gpu and use the intel graphics for better power consumption)

[vindicator]

Originally Posted by Snoops

(IF) Your main concern is power. Then there is no other option than a laptop.

Did you read the thread?

Phido: Asus have a Yonah board out now.

http://www.asus.com.tw/news_show.aspx?id=2654

Should be reasonably priced. I'm hoping the low side of $180.

I think i'll still go for the turion due to heatsink compatibility.

[Phido]

Im concidering all options at this stage. I still think desktop wins on a price/performance/flexability end. In the end I will proberly end up with atleast one desktop and one laptop between my GF and myself.

That is defianately a interesting board. Does anyone have a good link to duo core specs and performance?

Theres definately a lot of interest in low power, compact and silent boxes for HTPC's and desktops but some very promising products are still several months away.

I am still specifically looking for a AU avalible 6150 board pref with Vcore adjustment (downwards) in either 754 or 939. DVI is highly important.

Turion mobile parts seem to be essentially superior to A64 parts, returning lower consumption @ same volts and clocks. Opteron also may appear to be a good low power choice as well. Newer A64's can't be undervolted past 1.1v with software.

[vindicator]

Originally Posted by Phido

That is defianately a interesting board. Does anyone have a good link to duo core specs and performance?

http://balusc.xs4all.nl/srv/har-cpu-int-cor.php

L Series - ~13-15W.
T Series - ~13-31W.

[Phido]

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article313-page5.html

Absolutely brillant article on power usage is desktop situations with a varity of processors.

A64 3000+ comes out looking like a bargin from the power/price/efficency point of view. Able to run a entire system at 74w normally and 61w with a bit of undervolting and 20w peak cpu. Sitting only a few watts ahead of a turion box with a slower HD..

3800+ I think also did amazingly well.

There are also gains to be made on idle performance. And its a shame the Operton 165 didn't make it in there with its predicted better idle and peak power consumption (1.8ghz, lower core V etc).

Also interesting on PSU efficency and the use of intergrated video motherboards. Low power boxes can waste alot in PSU.. ~30%+...