Medicine : oxygen deprivation does NOT kill you for several hours.

Myne_h · 2nd May 2007, 3:05 PM

It's the coming back ON TO oxygen that kills you.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18368186/site/newsweek/

In a nutshell :

There's a part of the cell called the mitochondria. This part is responsible for 2 important tasks. Supplying the cell with energy, and killing corrupted cells.

Apparently, after the magical "5 minutes without oxygen" mark is passed, the mitochondria think that when a cell suddenly recieves oxygen, it is cancerous.
So it suicides.

On a scale of 1 cell, this does not really matter. But if every cell in your body does it simultanously, you're screwed.

Interestingly, cancer actively disables this part of the cell and finds another way to get energy. This disables the kill switch. Recently a drug called DCA was found that re-enables the mitochondria in cancer cells. It is undergoing further research.

So I pose the question :

Can we use cancer as the start point for a drug to disable the mitochondria temporarily while the patient is being revived?

Would that not be the ultimate irony?

Rod M · 2nd May 2007, 3:23 PM

interesting,

but alot of medicine is based on what in nature would be considered a posion,

Aamdaron · 2nd May 2007, 6:47 PM

Did a quick literature search and can't find anything, can someone point me in the right direction?

Article sounds like BS.
#1 Cells need energy ALL the time, what are these heart cells doing for energy without oxygen?

#2 Build up of metabolites

#3 Article contradicts itself

TaO! · 2nd May 2007, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rod M

interesting,

but alot of medicine is based on what in nature would be considered a posion,

TaO! · 3rd May 2007, 1:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Article

That dogma went unquestioned until researchers actually looked at oxygen-starved heart cells under a microscope.

The problem isn't the heart cells and the effects of reperfusion redox injury have been known for quite a few years. I'm not sure but I believe you can recover a reasonable % of heart tissue some time after hypoxia with NO and glucocorticoid treatment however necrosis is probably (although there is ordered destruction with similar morhology) the predominant form of neuronal death induced by hypoxia/ischemia in the brain.

Apoptosis: Proteolytic enzymes follow a reasonably ordered system of activation, usually involving mitochodria, resulting in cell death.

Necrosis: Passive ionic flux disturbance causes the cell to lyse (explode).

OCMunkee · 3rd May 2007, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaO!

A lot of anti-venoms and things are made from the venom itself. As well as various things we source from wildlife and sea-creatures that normally act as poison, though obviously we don't use the literal poison itself.

--
Nathan

shift · 3rd May 2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aamdaron

#1 Cells need energy ALL the time, what are these heart cells doing for energy without oxygen?

Oxygen is not required for non-mitochondrial energy production.

noboundaries-au · 3rd May 2007, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shift

Oxygen is not required for non-mitochondrial energy production.

The body also generates energy without oxygen during the first minute or so of exercise.

Quote:

There are two types of anaerobic energy system, the ATP-PCr energy system, which uses creatine phosphate as the main energy source, and the lactic-acid (or anaerobic glycolysis) system that uses glucose (or glycogen) in the absence of oxygen. The latter is an inefficient use of glucose and produces by-products that are thought to be detrimental to muscle function. The lactic-acid system is the dominant energy system during high to maximal intensity exercise over short durations (up to about 1 min), but the lactic acid system can still provide a proportion of the required energy during aerobic exercise, as the body has the capacity to get rid of the anaerobic by-products at a certain rate. The efficiency of by-product removal by muscles can improve through training.

Obviously there will be some trouble with this if the person is not breathing nor has a pulse, but its just purely to illustrate oxygen is not required always

Aamdaron · 3rd May 2007, 2:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shift

Oxygen is not required for non-mitochondrial energy production.

Heart when working right uses exclusively oxygen for energy production, cardiac myocytes are packed to the ass with Mitochondria. Lets just say the heart can get energy without oxygen; isn't this going to cause huge amounts of metabolites to build up. With no energy/bloodflow to remove said metabolites they will build up to toxic levels and cause necrosis anyway?

Quote:

A lot of anti-venoms and things are made from the venom itself. As well as various things we source from wildlife and sea-creatures that normally act as poison, though obviously we don't use the literal poison itself.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought anti-venoms were horse/sheep/cow Immunoglobulins which contained no venom in any form whatsoever.

R3Dl2ULZ · 3rd May 2007, 3:24 PM

they still milk snakes to get venom to get the animals to make the antivenom.

so they could try to develop something in a similar way using cancer cells.

TaO! · 3rd May 2007, 4:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OCMunkee

A lot of anti-venoms and things are made from the venom itself. As well as various things we source from wildlife and sea-creatures that normally act as poison, though obviously we don't use the literal poison itself.

--
Nathan

I wasn't confused about the statement, just its relevance. I'm pretty clued in with drugs. The protein I study is in largest family of protein drug targets (GPCRs).

Damianb · 3rd May 2007, 5:54 PM

When you get a shot for the flu. guess what they're doing

THEY'RE PUTTING THE FLU IN YOU

Myne_h · 3rd May 2007, 6:01 PM

uh that's both true and untrue.

My understanding of the flu vaccinations is that they literally cut the virus into small pieces and then inject it. This gives the immune system an inactive sample to develop antibodies for.

So it isnt literally injecting you with an active flu virus.

taztassio · 3rd May 2007, 6:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aamdaron

Did a quick literature search and can't find anything, can someone point me in the right direction?

Article sounds like BS.
#1 Cells need energy ALL the time, what are these heart cells doing for energy without oxygen?

#2 Build up of metabolites

#3 Article contradicts itself

BEAST!!!! Maybe i can add some eng in there u?

pOint_01 · 3rd May 2007, 7:33 PM

Oh My Science!

2nd May 2007, 3:05 PM	#1
Myne_h Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,551	Medicine : oxygen deprivation does NOT kill you for several hours. It's the coming back ON TO oxygen that kills you. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18368186/site/newsweek/ In a nutshell : There's a part of the cell called the mitochondria. This part is responsible for 2 important tasks. Supplying the cell with energy, and killing corrupted cells. Apparently, after the magical "5 minutes without oxygen" mark is passed, the mitochondria think that when a cell suddenly recieves oxygen, it is cancerous. So it suicides. On a scale of 1 cell, this does not really matter. But if every cell in your body does it simultanously, you're screwed. Interestingly, cancer actively disables this part of the cell and finds another way to get energy. This disables the kill switch. Recently a drug called DCA was found that re-enables the mitochondria in cancer cells. It is undergoing further research. So I pose the question : Can we use cancer as the start point for a drug to disable the mitochondria temporarily while the patient is being revived? Would that not be the ultimate irony?

2nd May 2007, 3:23 PM	#2
Rod M Über Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Training Monkeys Posts: 3,104	interesting, but alot of medicine is based on what in nature would be considered a posion,

2nd May 2007, 6:47 PM	#3
Aamdaron Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Melbourne Posts: 2,118	Did a quick literature search and can't find anything, can someone point me in the right direction? Article sounds like BS. #1 Cells need energy ALL the time, what are these heart cells doing for energy without oxygen? #2 Build up of metabolites #3 Article contradicts itself __________________ P4 2.53 Ghz\| Abit IT7 Max2 V2 \| Aopen H600B \|512mb DDR RAM PC-2700 CORSAIR CAS2 \| Hercules Radeon 9700 PRO \| Audigy 2 ZS \| Mitsubishi 19" \| WD 80GB 7200rpm 8mb cache \| Sony 16x dvd OCAU Night Owl#253 Member of the OCAU 3DMark Team AOPEN CASE MODDERS/OWNERS CLUB MEMBER #13 Firebird is teh rox

3rd May 2007, 3:24 PM	#10
R3Dl2ULZ Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Westish Sydney Posts: 1,239	they still milk snakes to get venom to get the animals to make the antivenom. so they could try to develop something in a similar way using cancer cells.

3rd May 2007, 5:54 PM	#12
Damianb Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,830	When you get a shot for the flu. guess what they're doing THEY'RE PUTTING THE FLU IN YOU

3rd May 2007, 6:01 PM	#13
Myne_h Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,551	uh that's both true and untrue. My understanding of the flu vaccinations is that they literally cut the virus into small pieces and then inject it. This gives the immune system an inactive sample to develop antibodies for. So it isnt literally injecting you with an active flu virus.

3rd May 2007, 7:33 PM	#15
pOint_01 Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: The Ghetto, Sydney Posts: 540	Oh My Science!