Team Fortress 2

[Narcoticx2]

Originally Posted by The King

Three Sentries in the same area, defending by their engineers, and a couple of soldiers/pyro.

Nice in theory, practically impossible in practise.

ubercharge...

[Assasinator_2]

Originally Posted by The King

Three Sentries in the same area, defending by their engineers, and a couple of soldiers/pyro.

Nice in theory, practically impossible in practise.

Try me.

Also, spam spapers. it takes a second to get rid of them, and they do damage over that period, so spam them enough and they'll kil lwhatever you are spamming. Of course, a compitent engie will fuck you up and then fuck your sap up, but most engies are barely able to tie their shoelaces.

[The King]

Originally Posted by Assasinator_2

Try me.

Also, spam spapers. it takes a second to get rid of them, and they do damage over that period, so spam them enough and they'll kil lwhatever you are spamming. Of course, a compitent engie will fuck you up and then fuck your sap up, but most engies are barely able to tie their shoelaces.

Yea, we get it, you're a fucking superstar.

[Assasinator_2]

Originally Posted by The King

Yea, we get it, you're a fucking superstar.

No, I just know how to work around any particular issue that I come across. Granted, it usually takes a variety of different classes, but you are definitely being silly when you say that because only a few specific classes can break through a very fortified defense, that's a bad thing.

It's not. It's supposed to be that way, so that you're (shock horror) made to work as a team. In team fortress. Oh the humanity.

If they have a huge fortification of turrets, approach from an angle that only one can see you and use stickies in groups to take them out. Alternatively, charge with an ubered pyro. Both will fuck shit up quicksmart.

Expecting a single soldier to take out 3 engineers and their buildings in one room is stupid. 3 defense class people in one area SHOULD be able to kick the arse of 1 offense person. Put 3 soldiers there, and have them group their fire, and you'll find it's a very different story.

Either way, I'm no superstar (well, I am, but not due to this). You're just not acutally thinking the problem through before using the classes in a creative way to beat it. You want the demoman to be easy to play, by being able to bounce pipes around corners where a turret can't hit you, and take it out in under a second due to the bounced pipes doing full damage. That's absolute crap, and makes the demoman way overpowered vs the engineer, who is in that situation effectively left with only a shotgun to take out the demoman, and is drawn away from his turret.

It's most certainly not impossible to do what I suggest on a 1v1 situation, and when there's a heavy nesting of them, of course it should be difficult to pull off, given it is costing the defense 3 team members, vs the offense 1.

[Narcoticx2]

Originally Posted by The King

Yea, we get it, you're a fucking superstar.

dont worry, he gets like that irl.

that said, he has a good point. you can always get through any situation if you adjust to it. that's the reason you're allowed to change class

[Herbo]

It's all wonderful to talk like "oh just get a medic backing you up" but I don't know about you but I can't play a medic AND another class at the same time.

[Ze.]

Originally Posted by Assasinator_2

It's most certainly not impossible to do what I suggest on a 1v1 situation, and when there's a heavy nesting of them, of course it should be difficult to pull off, given it is costing the defense 3 team members, vs the offense 1.

The only way we could've done it was to have most of our team ubering up and going in. There were simply that many sentries , we simply couldn't take them all down before they were built again.

Unless you've actually faced it then I don't think you have a clue about how difficult it is to negotiate past.

[Iro]

Originally Posted by Ze.

The only way we could've done it was to have most of our team ubering up and going in. There were simply that many sentries , we simply couldn't take them all down before they were built again.

Unless you've actually faced it then I don't think you have a clue about how difficult it is to negotiate past.

Had this today. Medic uber'd me as Pyro and the push back from 3 sentries meant it was REALLY hard for me to even get close enough to do damage to them

[Rubberband]

Had a major clan stack tonight. They rolled some maps but not all, was interesting/annoying.

I find the demoman a little hit or miss. Shines in defense but I can't get the hang of him on offense. I find his lack of at least a pistol irritating too.

[The King]

Originally Posted by Ze.

The only way we could've done it was to have most of our team ubering up and going in. There were simply that many sentries , we simply couldn't take them all down before they were built again.

Unless you've actually faced it then I don't think you have a clue about how difficult it is to negotiate past.

Exactly why his nice long post is completely meaningless.

I don't need lessons on how to play Team Fortress - especially when the lesson doesn't actually teach anything.

Originally Posted by Assasinator_2

It's not. It's supposed to be that way, so that you're (shock horror) made to work as a team. In team fortress. Oh the humanity.

If they have a huge fortification of turrets, approach from an angle that only one can see you and use stickies in groups to take them out. Alternatively, charge with an ubered pyro. Both will fuck shit up quicksmart.

It's most certainly not impossible to do what I suggest on a 1v1 situation, and when there's a heavy nesting of them, of course it should be difficult to pull off, given it is costing the defense 3 team members, vs the offense 1.

They are the relevant parts of your post.

We were working as a team (probably the best I've come across in a Pub server, with the exclusion of the old QWTF guys), but so were they. As I said, between 4-6 sentries and their engineers, plus soldiers and pyros supporting them. Your last paragraph is correct - but at no point in time were we talking about a 1 on 1 situation. A number of times we'd go in as a team, fight our way through 3 or 4 sentries, only to be killed by the engineers and their sentries in the flag room.

If there is a huge fortification of sentries, what do you think the chances are of being able to target one without another one killing you - or having the defensive players getting you?

Uber Pyro - nice in theory, but not in reality. A sentry gun at decent range will generally push/force you backwards preventing you from getting within range.

This is thanks to the power of the SG. Like Valve’s own class description indicates, the trick with Engineer lies in placement of the gun as much as anything else. A well-placed SG is pretty much akin to cancer; the same SG as part of an entrenched defence along with skilled engineers and you have yourself the current state of play in 2forts; a classic map that has been reduced to turtling with your own team of engineers into the enemy base.

Just for Nicky

[Assasinator_2]

Originally Posted by Ze.

The only way we could've done it was to have most of our team ubering up and going in. There were simply that many sentries , we simply couldn't take them all down before they were built again.

Unless you've actually faced it then I don't think you have a clue about how difficult it is to negotiate past.

Originally Posted by The King

We were working as a team (probably the best I've come across in a Pub server, with the exclusion of the old QWTF guys), but so were they. As I said, between 4-6 sentries and their engineers, plus soldiers and pyros supporting them. Your last paragraph is correct - but at no point in time were we talking about a 1 on 1 situation. A number of times we'd go in as a team, fight our way through 3 or 4 sentries, only to be killed by the engineers and their sentries in the flag room.

So you're playing against a compitent defense, you're saying? HOW DARE YOU LOSE! Defense should never be able to withstand an offense. Ever.

Clearly, the defense had you outclassed. Deal with it. Seriously, they sound like they were a very well-rounded team on defense, who knew their shit. I wouldn't be upset to losing to that - there's no reason why offense should always be able to break defense - in the perfectly balanced game, both should be equal.

This entire argument is deviating from both our original points - I'm saying that, as a demoman, you are not underpowered by virtue of the fact that your pipes no longer go 'dead' after any bounce. They are still a very powerful class, and I routinely top servers with them, post-patch. If anything, I feel the demoman is better off now that I can't waltz through 3 sentries and their associated engineers like it's a military drill. He was overpowered in being able to bounce pipes onto both players and sentries and cause full damage.

The only buff I'd like to see to him is possibly that he gets auto-detonate on one bounce to at least sentries, at a significantly reduce damage cost. This would still allow you to take out, say, a sentry with your 4 pipes if bouncing them off a wall into it, but it wouldn't let you bounce them into a hallway and frag 3 people in one set of 4 bombs.

I don't think the demoman is necessarily less powerful than he should be - he was significantly overpowered before and I think that someone who is classy with him can still signficiantly wipe the floor with any random group of pubs. Unfortunately , I can't say how he plays in a clan environment, as I'm yet to try him in a hardcore situation where the entire enemy is working together.

Just FYI, and so you're aware, this game is very much a fact of 'the sum is greater than the parts'. When the SA guys played Valve guys in a TF2 match a couple of days after it came out, they got dominated by a team of defensive scouts on dustbowl. That is to say, they did not cap the first point, even once the entire valve team switched to scouts to mock them. That is how effective a good team is together.

Bascially, don't be cut up if a good team fucks your shit up hardcore. TF2 is a game where a few people working together can be SO much more powerful than a few people working separately. It really is a game that is now team based to a very fine degree.

[Ze.]

Originally Posted by Assasinator_2

So you're playing against a compitent defense, you're saying? HOW DARE YOU LOSE! Defense should never be able to withstand an offense. Ever.

Clearly, the defense had you outclassed. Deal with it. Seriously, they sound like they were a very well-rounded team on defense, who knew their shit. I wouldn't be upset to losing to that - there's no reason why offense should always be able to break defense - in the perfectly balanced game, both should be equal.

We didn't lose though , it ended up being a stalemate , since they were so focused on defence they didn't attack.

I dunno about you but I reckon stalemates like that are a wank. Sure you can do it , but it doesn't make it fun. If it's going to be a stalemate , I'd much rather it because the teams were evenly matched on both offence and defence not because one team decides to ignore the whole point of a CTF map and solely focus on defence.

[Narcoticx2]

ubercharge... you're using it all wrong! you dont need to kill stuff when ubercharged, in fact, in a room of 4-6 sentries i'd be ubercharging simply to draw the fire of the sentries since once 4-6 of them start at you, you're not moving from that wall.

They don't often retarget, and a very well organised (would probably need to be at a lan or all on TS) could have gotten through it, eventually.

[japes]

Theory Fortress won't win you a game when theres 5 stacked sentries with active engineers at every one of them in a choke point.

You shouldn't get past that in a PUG, but they won't cap anyway. This is why I hate 2Fort.

[Assasinator_2]

Originally Posted by Ze.

We didn't lose though , it ended up being a stalemate , since they were so focused on defence they didn't attack.

I dunno about you but I reckon stalemates like that are a wank. Sure you can do it , but it doesn't make it fun. If it's going to be a stalemate , I'd much rather it because the teams were evenly matched on both offence and defence not because one team decides to ignore the whole point of a CTF map and solely focus on defence.

I meant lose in terms of being able to break their defense. The fact that it stalemated ties in with one of my comments a couple of posts ago what with the cost of committing a heap of team members to defense.

The problem there isn't that their defense is overpowered by its own accord. The problem was that that their defense became overpowered because they did not play to the map's objectives, either out of choice or because the map did not sufficiently encourage them to do so.

This is why I hate 2fort the most of any map, as it is the only one that doesn't clearly direct each team towards their goals. I tend to play CP only servers now for that reason.