PCB's - where to start?

mtma · 2nd November 2009, 7:37 PM

Hey, I was looking into designing my own PCB's for DIY projects and stuff.

I've used quite a bit of veroboard in the past and am frankly a bit tired of it all. For the effort of routing traces on a grid etc, the inferiority compared to a PCB is obvious, from the time it takes to route everything, general lack of flexibility and inferior (supposedly) result electrically.

I've looked around for some programs and there are quite a few. This leads to my first question: which program would you recommend? I've looked at FreePCB which seems to offer everything that I'd need, although I'd rather not piece together a library of parts footprints myself if that's a consideration.

Second question is that, although I've transferred layouts to PCBs and etched them myself before, I would rather not. Is letting the 'fingers do the walking' enough to come across professional PCB making services which would offer reasonable price to DIY/Prototype volumes (like 5 per layout or that sort of thing)?

dakiller · 2nd November 2009, 7:50 PM

Eagle Layout Editor is the most common pcb cad for the hobbyist, there are lots of libraries already for it, but it isn't hard to make your own for the occasion that there isn't one, plus you won't have a problem getting help on using it too.

For getting PCB's made, there are a few good choices. BatchPCB have no minimum and only charge $2.50 per sq in. Gold Phoenix actually fab the boards for them and have good deals of their own, $99us for 100sq in of board for whatever you can fit on it. I've also had boards made by Futurlec which were pretty good value

mtma · 2nd November 2009, 9:51 PM

Thanks, BatchPCB looks pretty good, as does Eagle. Read up on the tutorial suggested by BatchPCB about it and it seems pretty straightforward!

2xCPU · 3rd November 2009, 3:29 AM

PCB123 was recommended to me. I installed it, had a sniff around mocked up a basic board and uninstalled it again.

It seemed quite good, I just couldn't be shagged learning a new package.

Eagle has just been bought by Farnell, so we can expect to see Farnell catalogue numbers on the BOM and semi automatic order submission on future releases.

2.

oupimiquo · 3rd November 2009, 9:31 AM

Another vote for Eagle for most hobbyist stuff. gEDA would also be worth a look - it's relatively different from Eagle so might suit your way of working better (though back up your project frequently if you're using forward annotation, as this had a habit of destroying PCB layouts when I was using it).

As far as getting PCBs made, there's a design business down in Melbourne who'll tack your design onto PCB panels they're getting made. Turnaround is relatively slow (a few weeks, IME, since they're not ordering panels every day), but the quality is excellent and the price cheap

I can't find the name right now (long story) but maybe someone else knows?

mtma · 3rd November 2009, 11:04 AM

Looked at Eagle this morning, then looked at PCB123

Although PCB123 looks like it might have a better interface than Eagle the scant default libraries turned me off (this was V3)

Then I proceeded to produce my first design. This is so much easier than doing it with pen and paper tbh! Although there are in outs with the interface, I have used logic/block diagram based programs with better interfaces.

The veroboard way of thinking in the above might be pretty evident. How do you get polygons to fill by the way? They seem to appear as dotted lines and not actually link any of the contained pads together (ratlines still show)

dakiller · 3rd November 2009, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtma

How do you get polygons to fill by the way? They seem to appear as dotted lines and not actually link any of the contained pads together (ratlines still show)

Polygons need to be connected to a NET before they will work, click on the NAME button and name your net the same as the net you want to connect to, ie. VCC, GND, etc.

Caffeine · 4th November 2009, 7:12 AM

I'll put in a recommendation for protel / altium. There's a pretty steep learning curve, but it's a professional design suite.

The cost of the software is huge, (around $10k a seat) but they offer a free demo. I find it much easier to use than eagle.

2xCPU · 4th November 2009, 8:08 AM

What are the limitations of the free version (protel / altium)?

The free version of eagle is limited to 2 layers of copper and it claims "board area limited to 100x80mm" which is not strictly true.
You can make the board as large as you like, it's just that all the pins must be within the limited area. Component outlines and tracks may extend past the boundary.

2.

Caffeine · 4th November 2009, 8:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2xCPU

What are the limitations of the free version (protel / altium)?

The free version of eagle is limited to 2 layers of copper and it claims "board area limited to 100x80mm" which is not strictly true.
You can make the board as large as you like, it's just that all the pins must be within the limited area. Component outlines and tracks may extend past the boundary.

2.

Last time I used the demo there were no restrictions, just expires after 30 days or something.

mtma · 4th November 2009, 4:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dakiller

Polygons need to be connected to a NET before they will work, click on the NAME button and name your net the same as the net you want to connect to, ie. VCC, GND, etc.

Got it working, thanks for your help. Also had my first run in with ERC errors which were quite rapidly solved with this piece of information along with the inbuilt help, which was good.

As for Altium, I did briefly look at that and as far as I could spot the trial version is indeed 30 days, so not too suitable for me cause the master files (i.e the native editing formates) would be useless to me once the trial ran out. But I think I will still look into using it since it's always good to have at least basic experience.

I think i will give another free suite a look in the near future though because I want to make something larger than the Eagle free/Light edition boards.

alvarez · 4th November 2009, 5:48 PM

in the sticky theres a link to tangent tutorials (spelling from memory)
He gives a very good intro into eagle through video tutorials.

Eagles interface is horrendous but its pretty full featured and the price is right.

Oryp Cainam · 6th November 2009, 8:55 AM

I'm a big fan of Altium. Yes it's big and scary at first, but the tutorials are really good and after running through the 'Getting started with PCB design' you will be able to do (relatively simples) designs no worries.

Once you've mastered layout, learn how to make your own footprints and then you're pretty much set.

cvidler · 6th November 2009, 9:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtma

Thanks, BatchPCB looks pretty good, as does Eagle. Read up on the tutorial suggested by BatchPCB about it and it seems pretty straightforward!

I've used both, and happy with the results.

The 'catch' with BatchPCB, is you may be stuck waiting months, as they only fab the boards, when they have a whole 'sheet' full of customers designs ready. My last order (over christmas period, so kinda my fault there too) took 3 months. Often it's not that bad. But it's not guaranteed how long it'll take. But the quality is excellent, and the price cheap.

I've used Eagle for years, for hobbists it's everything you'll need, and easy enough to learn (and as mentioned, plenty of support out there).

Protel/Altium etc. are great products (no doubt), but unless you're making multilayer boards and need to worry about GHz signalling, it's probably not required.

nEBUz · 6th November 2009, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caffeine

I'll put in a recommendation for protel / altium. There's a pretty steep learning curve, but it's a professional design suite.

The cost of the software is huge, (around $10k a seat) but they offer a free demo. I find it much easier to use than eagle.

Price drop on Altium recently has put it in the realm of affordability for serious hobbyists! (still pricy, but not completely insane)

2nd November 2009, 7:37 PM	#1
mtma Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 30	PCB's - where to start? Hey, I was looking into designing my own PCB's for DIY projects and stuff. I've used quite a bit of veroboard in the past and am frankly a bit tired of it all. For the effort of routing traces on a grid etc, the inferiority compared to a PCB is obvious, from the time it takes to route everything, general lack of flexibility and inferior (supposedly) result electrically. I've looked around for some programs and there are quite a few. This leads to my first question: which program would you recommend? I've looked at FreePCB which seems to offer everything that I'd need, although I'd rather not piece together a library of parts footprints myself if that's a consideration. Second question is that, although I've transferred layouts to PCBs and etched them myself before, I would rather not. Is letting the 'fingers do the walking' enough to come across professional PCB making services which would offer reasonable price to DIY/Prototype volumes (like 5 per layout or that sort of thing)?

2nd November 2009, 7:50 PM	#2
dakiller Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: NarreWarren, Melb Posts: 4,729	Eagle Layout Editor is the most common pcb cad for the hobbyist, there are lots of libraries already for it, but it isn't hard to make your own for the occasion that there isn't one, plus you won't have a problem getting help on using it too. For getting PCB's made, there are a few good choices. BatchPCB have no minimum and only charge $2.50 per sq in. Gold Phoenix actually fab the boards for them and have good deals of their own, $99us for 100sq in of board for whatever you can fit on it. I've also had boards made by Futurlec which were pretty good value __________________ In memory of Cheers Z

3rd November 2009, 3:29 AM	#4
2xCPU Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: uk Posts: 1,347	PCB123 was recommended to me. I installed it, had a sniff around mocked up a basic board and uninstalled it again. It seemed quite good, I just couldn't be shagged learning a new package. Eagle has just been bought by Farnell, so we can expect to see Farnell catalogue numbers on the BOM and semi automatic order submission on future releases. 2. __________________ Wanted: Naked GPS and HP-IB interface If "building a computer" doesn't involve powertools, your just assembling spare parts. ---- The universe is made up of atoms and empty space, the rest is mere opinion. Democritus, 400 BC.

4th November 2009, 7:12 AM	#8
Caffeine Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,081	I'll put in a recommendation for protel / altium. There's a pretty steep learning curve, but it's a professional design suite. The cost of the software is huge, (around $10k a seat) but they offer a free demo. I find it much easier to use than eagle. __________________ Free LCD's all gone now...

4th November 2009, 8:08 AM	#9
2xCPU Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: uk Posts: 1,347	What are the limitations of the free version (protel / altium)? The free version of eagle is limited to 2 layers of copper and it claims "board area limited to 100x80mm" which is not strictly true. You can make the board as large as you like, it's just that all the pins must be within the limited area. Component outlines and tracks may extend past the boundary. 2. __________________ Wanted: Naked GPS and HP-IB interface If "building a computer" doesn't involve powertools, your just assembling spare parts. ---- The universe is made up of atoms and empty space, the rest is mere opinion. Democritus, 400 BC.

2nd November 2009, 9:51 PM	#3
mtma Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 30	Thanks, BatchPCB looks pretty good, as does Eagle. Read up on the tutorial suggested by BatchPCB about it and it seems pretty straightforward!

3rd November 2009, 9:31 AM	#5
oupimiquo Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 517	Another vote for Eagle for most hobbyist stuff. gEDA would also be worth a look - it's relatively different from Eagle so might suit your way of working better (though back up your project frequently if you're using forward annotation, as this had a habit of destroying PCB layouts when I was using it). As far as getting PCBs made, there's a design business down in Melbourne who'll tack your design onto PCB panels they're getting made. Turnaround is relatively slow (a few weeks, IME, since they're not ordering panels every day), but the quality is excellent and the price cheap I can't find the name right now (long story) but maybe someone else knows?

3rd November 2009, 11:04 AM	#6
mtma Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 30	Looked at Eagle this morning, then looked at PCB123 Although PCB123 looks like it might have a better interface than Eagle the scant default libraries turned me off (this was V3) Then I proceeded to produce my first design. This is so much easier than doing it with pen and paper tbh! Although there are in outs with the interface, I have used logic/block diagram based programs with better interfaces. The veroboard way of thinking in the above might be pretty evident. How do you get polygons to fill by the way? They seem to appear as dotted lines and not actually link any of the contained pads together (ratlines still show)

4th November 2009, 5:48 PM	#12
alvarez Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Geelong 3218 Posts: 1,945	in the sticky theres a link to tangent tutorials (spelling from memory) He gives a very good intro into eagle through video tutorials. Eagles interface is horrendous but its pretty full featured and the price is right. __________________ Proud owner of a 1963 Morris 850 Mini - Build Thread If I post in CE/SD, Ignore me, I'm a troll.

6th November 2009, 8:55 AM	#13
Oryp Cainam Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Brisbane Posts: 266	I'm a big fan of Altium. Yes it's big and scary at first, but the tutorials are really good and after running through the 'Getting started with PCB design' you will be able to do (relatively simples) designs no worries. Once you've mastered layout, learn how to make your own footprints and then you're pretty much set. __________________ The secret is to bang the rocks together.