Australian Tax Office finally gives Open Source some lovin'

[elvis]

Consider too that Australia has one of the highest percentages of the workforce in the public sector.

The statistic I last heard a few years back was 1 in 7 working Australians are in the public sector. That ratio far outweighs all other western countries.

So with such a huge volume of us working in the public sector, why is it that the output is still so poor?

[Smokin Whale]

Has anyone tried E-Tax in WINE in Ubuntu? Genuinely curious... otherwise, Virtualbox + an old copy of Windows XP on ubuntu should be all you need. I think you lot are getting into a bit of a huff and a puff.

[elvis]

Originally Posted by Smokin Whale

Has anyone tried E-Tax in WINE in Ubuntu? Genuinely curious... otherwise, Virtualbox + an old copy of Windows XP on ubuntu should be all you need. I think you lot are getting into a bit of a huff and a puff.

Didn't work for me in WINE in 2008. Haven't tried since.

Run it currently in Virtualbox/WinXP.

[Smokin Whale]

Originally Posted by elvis

Didn't work for me in WINE in 2008. Haven't tried since.

Run it currently in Virtualbox/WinXP.

Hmm. I've got a VM of Ubuntu 10.10 I could test E-tax with, when I get a spare moment I'll let people know how it goes with WINE.

[Oblong Cheese]

Originally Posted by Smokin Whale

Has anyone tried E-Tax in WINE in Ubuntu? Genuinely curious... otherwise, Virtualbox + an old copy of Windows XP on ubuntu should be all you need. I think you lot are getting into a bit of a huff and a puff.

Yes and no, with respect to the 'huff and puff' statement - the question is "Why can't we run e-tax natively on Linux?" and the official response is either non-existent, or, "Why would you want to?"

Ignoring tax payers and deferring tax payer questions is not what government sectors are supposed to do.

[Xplora]

Originally Posted by Oblong Cheese

Yes and no, with respect to the 'huff and puff' statement - the question is "Why can't we run e-tax natively on Linux?" and the official response is either non-existent, or, "Why would you want to?"

Ignoring tax payers and deferring tax payer questions is not what government sectors are supposed to do.

But interestingly enough, it seems that people who KNOW what things are like in the upper echelons (like elvis) refuse to do anything that could be considered "meaningful". Ranting online doesn't count, especially when you have a real opportunity to make a difference because you have the skills to do something.

Simple fact is, engineering for different platforms is harder, and while some people might be used to big budgets and getting things done their way, the ATO is facing a neverending battle against IT gremlins enough without having to work with multiple platforms.

The comment about Auskey being multi-platform is quite amusing. As I said earlier, I have a lot of experience dealing with the pointy end of the stick, and if you aren't running Windows, you might be able to download the Auskey, but that doesn't mean you can actually access something with it.

Until people like elvis get off their high horse, and get into the ATO and try and get some change, then things won't change. The ATO is the biggest, baddest, meanest bully on the block, and it is that way for a reason; you don't have a choice but deal with them. If their upper management is proWindows, then you'll get Windows apps. If you are a Linux fan and refuse to engage and create change, you're not going to see a change because the only people left will be proWindows. Gee. Why does nothing change?

[cleary]

Originally Posted by Xplora

... If you are a Linux fan and refuse to engage and create change, you're not going to see a change because the only people left will be proWindows. Gee. Why does nothing change?

Linux fans "Refusing to engage" is a big assumption on your part. In my case, I live 4 hours from the closest capital city, and am unable to "engage" by just going and getting a job at the ATO (which seems to be what you suggest should be done).
So, how do I "engage"? I deploy and run standards-based software on Linux-based servers and desktops as part of my job - I work to make this software a viable corporate productivity tool, by a) proving it is so by doing it, and b) contributing to open standards/open source projects by way of time, development skills and money. I also push poll the ATO about our standards based usage as I do other organisations I deal with using non-standards compliant tools (including Standards bodies )

I think you'll find Elvis (among many others here) has a similar approach to mine, but he is simply more vocal about it on these forums than I am.

Personally, I think the problem is not because we're "refusing to engage", and more because affecting that sort of change in approach requires a degree of long term planning. "Long Term" your average ATO CIO tenure ain't.

Fortunately there are people working from the top down too.

[Xplora]

Originally Posted by cleary

Linux fans "Refusing to engage" is a big assumption on your part. In my case, I live 4 hours from the closest capital city, and am unable to "engage" by just going and getting a job at the ATO (which seems to be what you suggest should be done).

I'm simply putting the case out there. It's a public service organisation. If they didn't spend so much time chasing noncompliant taxpayers, maybe they'd have the money to develop more userfriendly stuff. LMAO

If you want to see change, and you are a high level IT person, perhaps you can create change by actually engaging the organisation, and changing it yourself.

Creating Linux environments in the one company you work for will not succeed in your lifetime, because let's face it, even when it is free to purchase, Windows STILL leads. You could make this change inside the ATO by getting a job there and joining the meetings and making it happen. It is possible.

Of course, that's a much bigger commitment, and would require a sincere belief that open source is worth the effort. If it's "just an option" then that's all it will be. An option for the fringe. This is the first and only place I've heard complaints about ATO systems not supporting Linux better in the past. Only 1-3% of people complain about the lack of support for Mac... I would know.

[cleary]

Originally Posted by Xplora

...
Creating Linux environments in the one company you work for will not succeed in your lifetime, because let's face it, even when it is free to purchase, Windows STILL leads.
...
Of course, that's a much bigger commitment, and would require a sincere belief that open source is worth the effort. If it's "just an option" then that's all it will be. An option for the fringe. This is the first and only place I've heard complaints about ATO systems not supporting Linux better in the past. Only 1-3% of people complain about the lack of support for Mac... I would know.

You're also misrepresenting us - the goal is not Linux support, or even some sort of Open Source agenda within the ATO.

The goal is Open Standards support.

So it doesn't matter what OS you use.

[elvis]

Originally Posted by Xplora

because you have the skills to do something.

While I'm flattered at your opinion of me, technical skill is not required to fix the ATO. It's all politics.

FWIW, I've had numerous recruitment staff tell me I'd "never get a job in the public sector". When I asked why, the response is always the same: "your resume would scare them off". That tells me exactly what the public sector is looking for. People like me - fixers - don't even get a look in, because we represent and end to the bullshit, free rides and gravy trains.

Originally Posted by Xplora

Until people like elvis get off their high horse, and get into the ATO and try and get some change, then things won't change.

Again, while I am flattered by your opinion of me, I don't think it's valid to say this is somehow my fault for not making the change myself.

And for what it's worth, I've contacted the ATO on numerous occasions and in very different ways to try and get a response - ranging from individually to as part of a larger and more political group like OSIA. As others have mentioned, the only response I've ever seen has been utter silence on the issue. The ATO are masters of the "ostrich policy" when it comes to the general public.

So much for the phrase "public servants".

Originally Posted by Xplora

This is the first and only place I've heard complaints about ATO systems not supporting Linux better in the past. Only 1-3% of people complain about the lack of support for Mac... I would know.

Again, I've seen numerous attempts to bring this to the attention of the ATO. OSIA in particular have been very vocal (and patient, and polite) about this issue. If you've not heard it, it's not for lack of trying from the wider community.

Originally Posted by cleary

You're also misrepresenting us - the goal is not Linux support, or even some sort of Open Source agenda within the ATO.

The goal is Open Standards support.

So it doesn't matter what OS you use.

Precisely. The goal is that anyone with any OS that supports open standards can utilise the service. If the ATO added a Linux-only option to their software offerings, we'd be no better off. This is not a "Windows vs Linux" argument. This is a "the public sector needs to meet the needs of all members of the public" argument.

[octagonalman]

Originally Posted by elvis

FWIW, I've had numerous recruitment staff tell me I'd "never get a job in the public sector". When I asked why, the response is always the same: "your resume would scare them off". That tells me exactly what the public sector is looking for. People like me - fixers - don't even get a look in, because we represent and end to the bullshit, free rides and gravy trains.

Forgive me if this is a silly question, but what does a resume of a fixer look like?

[elvis]

Originally Posted by octagonalman

Forgive me if this is a silly question, but what does a resume of a fixer look like?

A person who consistently comes into comes into companies, assists on rolling out large and complex projects that consistently come under deadline and under budget, and leaves some years later with copious amounts of quality documentation and training/mentoring of junior staff to ensure the business can continue on without them. All the while, generally saving anywhere from tens of thousands to millions of dollars per year in expenditure by removing bloated, legacy and inefficient systems in favour of ones that produce better return for the business.

My resume reflects that, and the dozens of referees on it also vouch for my successes and hard work - people who range from technical team members to IT managers to company directors, CIOs and CEOs. Heck, I even assisted one business in achieving an Australian Film Industry award for best visual effects in a motion picture thanks to a completely left-field studio design that saved him over a quarter of a million dollars in his first year. A feat the studio owner/director is ever grateful for.

I remember one recruitment agent in particular told me how she'd passed my resume on to one large public sector organisation only to have it rejected immediately. She asked why, and the team leader's very candid response was "he'd put us all out of the job in a few weeks!".

It's pretty clear a lot of people in this industry (and not just the public sector, despite the fact that I do really bash them quite openly) seem to be nothing more than chair warmers.

[houseofzeus]

Originally Posted by Xplora

The comment about Auskey being multi-platform is quite amusing. As I said earlier, I have a lot of experience dealing with the pointy end of the stick, and if you aren't running Windows, you might be able to download the Auskey, but that doesn't mean you can actually access something with it.

Sure, but somebody obviously thought it was worth it or why would they bother.

Originally Posted by Xplora

I'm simply putting the case out there. It's a public service organisation. If they didn't spend so much time chasing noncompliant taxpayers, maybe they'd have the money to develop more userfriendly stuff. LMAO

They just spent nearly $1 billion on the change program, this is not a monetary problem. I also like to think that an organisation with over 22,000 staff on the books is capable of doing more than one thing at a time. Non-compliance activities are only part of what the ATO does.

Originally Posted by Xplora

If you want to see change, and you are a high level IT person, perhaps you can create change by actually engaging the organisation, and changing it yourself.

While the input of IT staff would be sought after in the process it is unlikely that staff with an IT background are the ones ultimately making the funding decision on this type of project.

Originally Posted by Xplora

Creating Linux environments in the one company you work for will not succeed in your lifetime, because let's face it, even when it is free to purchase, Windows STILL leads. You could make this change inside the ATO by getting a job there and joining the meetings and making it happen. It is possible.

I can think of a number of companies flogging Linux support contracts which would beg to differ. It's not joe consumer buying them that's for sure.

Of course, that's a much bigger commitment, and would require a sincere belief that open source is worth the effort. If it's "just an option" then that's all it will be. An option for the fringe. This is the first and only place I've heard complaints about ATO systems not supporting Linux better in the past. Only 1-3% of people complain about the lack of support for Mac... I would know.

As others have pointed out it's not about Open Source, Mac, or Linux.

[Joe Public]

Originally Posted by elvis

While I'm flattered at your opinion of me, technical skill is not required to fix the ATO. It's all politics.

FWIW, I've had numerous recruitment staff tell me I'd "never get a job in the public sector". When I asked why, the response is always the same: "your resume would scare them off". That tells me exactly what the public sector is looking for. People like me - fixers - don't even get a look in, because we represent and end to the bullshit, free rides and gravy trains.

Amen to that. I'm a fairly recent starter in a public service job. My role isn't IT but there are definitely options for improvement that are IT related. And while I don't have the skill to solve the problems myself, i think i'm definitely capable of being the intermediary between what needs to be done and what can be done in terms of technology. I'm also the squeaky wheel that'll make noise until something happens.

But the resistance to change and general inertia in these places is almost insurmountable. Everyone's covering their arse, shading the problems from the light and calling things copacetic. No one wants to be the one responsible for the change because there's always a fairly hefty abundance of nay-sayers looking to score points from your failure, should it happen.

[Xplora]

Originally Posted by Joe Public

But the resistance to change and general inertia in these places is almost insurmountable. Everyone's covering their arse, shading the problems from the light and calling things copacetic.

This is ALL workplaces where people are not interested in change. A place like Google where they are always innovating is the exception, not the rule.