Linux, 20 years on....

[elvis]

Originally Posted by Reaper

Don't worry, you'll soon be ranting here on how it's also an 100% proprietry in house distro used and no standard compiles are allowed, etc and how the bean counters are to blame as well as management.

Nah, these guys are very much about open standards (given most of their stuff is web based, they need to be).

And it's a small place, which means the budgetary process is a hell of a lot more transparent than big, stupid corps.

The downside of small places is that, generally speaking, they don't pay very well. This mob appear to have the best of both worlds (not too many people, bug big budgets), so I'm pretty excited.

[stmok]

Originally Posted by IKT

BUT IS IT READY FOR THE DESKTOP?!?

The "Year of the Linux Desktop" nonsense was created by IT journalists looking for a story in Linux. Its not going to happen on their agenda or on their terms. Linux's success isn't currently on the desktop. Its everywhere else. That's what is happening around the World. ie: Supercomputers, embedded/portable devices, web servers, etc.

It'll succeed on the desktop when the key pieces (currently in development) start falling together. I suspect its going to take a long time, given the current pace...Which doesn't work well in our quick-fix, "I want it NOW!", for three easy payments of $29.95 society.


As for the video in the first post...

FINALLY! No more of the Apple-like "PC vs Mac" BS. Something that just explains it.

As for Linus's "Zoo incident". => http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tux
...It happened at National Zoo & Aquarium in Canberra. There's even a sign there that tells the story.

[adam]

More hardware manufacturers need to supply stable linux drivers before it will become mainstream on the desktop.

That said, it's really not far off it. Most of the major distributions will install clean with no changes & have you up and running pretty quickly.

Such a mammoth change to what was available even 5 years ago.

[elvis]

Originally Posted by adam

More hardware manufacturers need to supply stable linux drivers before it will become mainstream on the desktop.

Throw away statement number 985209735.

Really, aren't we past nonsense posts like these in this forum by now?

[IKT]

Originally Posted by elvis

Throw away statement number 985209735.

Really, aren't we past nonsense posts like these in this forum by now?

It will never end.

I learned the hard way (3 years later that infraction just burns), you can't escape it unless you throw away all of your possessions and retreat to mount scary_distro_that_is_not_friendly_to_newbies.

[Swathe]

I hear it all the time from one particular guy from our LUG. He is always bitching because some shithouse obscure windows app doesn't run under WINE and "that's why Linux will never be mainstream."

It culminated the other week with him basically calling me an idiot because I couldn't provide a solution to his massively ill-explained problem. It wass somewhat satisfying to "fix" his laptop in front of everyone by enabling the wifi card, but it has left me thinking about the morons who have come across too.

I guess I am over the "windoze" and "Microsloth LOLOL" jokes, because it's just being as ignorant as Mac fanboys who they claim to also hate.

[adam]

Originally Posted by elvis

Throw away statement number 985209735.

Really, aren't we past nonsense posts like these in this forum by now?

Sorry, thanks for correcting me.

The lack of stable drivers for very common hardware is one good reason, the other is the superiority complex that some linux users have, which tend to lead to nerd rage and scare new users off will also hold it back.

[cleary]

I'm a bit late to this party.

This thread is treading an extremely fine line - improve the tone/content or I'll lock it.

[IKT]

Originally Posted by cleary

This thread is treading an extremely fine line - improve the tone/content or I'll lock it.

You're no fun grandpa

Originally Posted by adam

The lack of stable drivers for very common hardware is one good reason

Can you name some very common hardware that doesn't have drivers for it available in linux?

Originally Posted by adam

the other is the superiority complex that some linux users have, which tend to lead to nerd rage and scare new users off will also hold it back.

Since this is such a problematic issue in the linux community, could you provide some (lets say 3) examples of said nerd rage at newbie linux users on the ubuntuforums? Since the large majority of linux newbies use ubuntuforums, it would good to see this issue first hand, where I can take some action for the better.

To help you out I assume a good place to look for nerd rage at linux newbies would be where a lot of linux newbies make their first post, so here:

http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=326

[stmok]

Originally Posted by adam

Sorry, thanks for correcting me.

The lack of stable drivers for very common hardware is one good reason, the other is the superiority complex that some linux users have, which tend to lead to nerd rage and scare new users off will also hold it back.

Other issues:

* Patents get in the way.
eg => http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item&px=OTMzMg

* Key critical infrastructure need to be re-built.
eg => Mesa to Gallium3D is a slow process in transition.

* Not enough people working on critical infrastructure.
eg => Pace is slow such that Linus Torvalds gets annoyed with the graphics people.

* Certain GUI features are copied from others...But for the wrong reasons.
eg => Trying to emulate someone else's success, but not really understanding the "Why does it work for them?" part. (You'll find an open source re-implementation of an idea is a little dis-jointed as a result.)


Its not all sad though...You kind of notice a few things in the last 20yrs.

* Turns out that for open source, its not about a race to be the fastest to market. Its a marathon. As long as someone out there commits something worthy, Linux will hang around for many years to come...Being consistent in small increments on a daily basis will always win in the end.

* There's really no point in flogging the dead horse that is the anti-Microsoft stance we've traditionally had. (In the end, none of their actions will stop us in the long term. Even they realise that after a while!) ... One is more lethal to any multi-billion dollar company when they roll their sleeves up and make their ideas happen. To not say a word and let the product speak for itself. (Its a slow, but long lasting path.)

* Intel has an Open Source Technology Center in China. There's over 50 engineers making various contributions on various open source projects. From making their IGPs of their latest processors work (active open source driver development), submitting patches to the Kernel, and making submissions to Xen project. Not to mention that PowerTOP tool.

* AMD releasing technical docs. They also have their small team of open source engineers who are always making a contribution. (Lay the foundations for supporting their latest GPUs and upcoming IGPs in their APUs.)

* Nouveau project...Even without Nvidia's help, they've made progress on their own. (Long and painful process of test, study, implement, and debug.)

* Red Hat is pretty much the example of a successful business that strikes the right balance between making money and giving back to the community. (I also see them as an example of "Quality of service matters more for long term success"...While other tech companies take a hit during the GFC, Red Hat was making profits.) ...They are the model to follow. Assuming you want to start your own service-oriented open source based company.

* Ubuntu has made a notable mark around the world, by introducing Linux to the public. (Of course, things could be improved: They are really held back by the processes within the project. It results in bugs not getting fixed, unnecessarily long times to get new software into Ubuntu repositories, etc.)

* Magazines, IT news sites, etc...They never had a Linux or Open-Source section in the past. Now they do! eg: Ars Technica, Anandtech, etc.

After 20yrs, you eventually come to realise that its not about winning or losing any more. Its about providing a good solution...As long as we continuously improve and be consistent about it, I see Linux going for another 20 yrs.

[elvis]

Originally Posted by stmok

* Red Hat is pretty much the example of a successful business that strikes the right balance between making money and giving back to the community. (I also see them as an example of "Quality of service matters more for long term success"...While other tech companies take a hit during the GFC, Red Hat was making profits.)

Too right they were making profits. This financial year has seen them fly past the $1bn/year revenue mark, which is amazing.

I've lost count of the number of times I've been told by very self-assured business people that open source will never be a commercial success because "how can anything that's free have commercial value?".

RedHat's amazing financial success is testament to this new school of thinking. And their market share is going through the roof - I get alerts from it.seek.com.au about any Linux-based jobs in Queensland, and the volume of RHEL/JEAP jobs (as well as other zero-dollar Linux/JBoss Community Edition combo jobs) coming through in the last 6 months is utterly insane. It's pretty clear the world is moving on from UNIX/Websphere (and occasionally IIS/.Net too) to a much cheaper and easier to use/maintain system.

Originally Posted by IKT

Can you name some very common hardware that doesn't have drivers for it available in linux?

At risk of feeding the troll (and suffering Cleary's wrath), I'll second this question.

My career with Linux spans a number of roles. I've done everything from enterprise servers (essentially UNIX replacement systems) to web clusters (the cloud!) to high-end workstation rollouts to doing very low end machines for a PC retailer to sell to customers.

I've had the chance to work with a pretty broad range of hardware (from $200,000 machines to $200 machines, and almost everything in between), and at no time in that period has Linux's hardware support been a major roadblock.

Speaking entirely from my experience, the traditional dramas have been task-specific software for business. Things like MYOB are a pretty classic example where by a Windows PC has needed to live somewhere in an otherwise all-Linux business just to do the finances. These days, that's not as much of an issue thanks to virtualisation. You still need to pay a Windows licenses, but in the grand scheme of things it's a small cost for a one-off (MYOB itself costs more), and when virtualised it means the application sits in a nice little container, easily backed up, and easily moved around on various hardware if required (meaning no dramas when physical hardware breaks, or needs to be upgraded).

Once again speaking entirely from my own experience, the thing that's limited mass Linux adoption in business is the perception that system administrators and helpdesk staff skilled in the software are hard to find. Whether it's true or not, I don't know. But there's certainly no shortage of helpdesk kids who have a Windows box at home for gaming, and consider themselves adept. I think the problem there is a lack of mentoring and training at the business level, and the fact that businesses expect candidates to step into jobs without training at any level. I'd agree that you certainly hire your experts at the top end with the expectation that they know their stuff. But at the entry level, I think it's a self-perpetuating cycle of failure that then locks businesses into software because their support staff happen to play a few games on said platform.

But no matter which way you skin it, "a lack of stable drivers" has never, in my experience, been a critical point in the decision whether to rollout out Linux or something else in a business environment.

When it comes to home users, it's just a case of familiarity and pre-loaded software. Windows is no better or worse than anything else for a home user, but home users are used to certain things. And Microsoft are learning that lesson the hard way, as they themselves struggle to compete with the iPhone. In 6 months of sales, Windows Mobile has sold as many devices as the iPhone did in the first 48 hours. People are creatures of habit, and once hooked, rarely change. Microsoft's equal dominance on the desktop and abject failure on the portable device front has demonstrated that nicely.

[j3ll0]

Originally Posted by elvis

RedHat's amazing financial success is testament to this new school of thinking.

It's interesting you tie Red Hat to new school of thinking.

You know of the semantic origins of the name "Red Hat", don't you?

Edward de Bono, creator of, among other things, the Six Thinking Hats.


.

[phreeky82]

Originally Posted by elvis

Last Friday was my last day at my mixed-environment job. Another few weeks and I start at a 100% Linux place. Can't wait!

I did that once. Sounded great at first, but the use of a particular OS is such a minor factor in job satisfaction, that's for sure! (half the business was made redundant a few months later)

Originally Posted by IKT

Can you name some very common hardware that doesn't have drivers for it available in linux?

There are still a number of hardware manufacturers that give no shit for Linux - less so actual computer components, more so peripheral devices and interfacing software for specialist hardware. If you haven't come across hardware incompatibilities then you haven't used Linux much IMO.

Linux will just keep on evolving due to particular businesses using it for XYZ and will find its way into various devices - servers, desktops, mobile phones, tablets, media players, and even a ground penetrating radar controller as I discovered recently. Fun fun.

[CaptainBlame]

Originally Posted by phreeky82

I did that once. Sounded great at first, but the use of a particular OS is such a minor factor in job satisfaction, that's for sure! (half the business was made redundant a few months later)

+1, give me a job where it takes me 5 minutes to get to work, good work life balance and social office atmosphere. I can go home and play with my favourite OS without the hassles of change management etc.

Linux is doing well, but theres still plenty of opportunity in all other platforms and plenty of job opportunities. Also linux still doesn't work that crash hot on real enterprise machines. You know the ones where the ram alone costs $200,0000.

[oli]

Originally Posted by elvis

Last Friday was my last day at my mixed-environment job. Another few weeks and I start at a 100% Linux place. Can't wait!

You won't have enough to do.