How close is your NBN?

Discussion in 'Networking, Telephony & Internet' started by Akh-Horus, Dec 21, 2016.

  1. ir0nhide

    ir0nhide Member

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    Perhaps a better use of the analogy would be 'How big do you want the pipes to be?'. If you only pay for maintaining small pipes then you'll get crap performance when everyone has a shower/does the dishes etc.
     
  2. MR CHILLED

    MR CHILLED D'oh!

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    lol, ah it's a bit like that is it.

    I won't get too excited then, especially when already sitting at 100Mb/s cable :leet:
     
  3. ir0nhide

    ir0nhide Member

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    That and most providers oversubscribe the CVC to buggery; you'll probably end up experiencing better throughput on your existing service :p
     
  4. TRG.dOinK

    TRG.dOinK Member

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    Well then re-model the whole thing, so that the network charge covers it (high fee) and then a low usage fee (CVC).

    The way the setup is now does not work and never will. Never ending cycle and price is not going to determine who is good and isn't, nor is reading a forum, because it will depend on your location / area.

    Its backwards, low charge access fee, which high usage charge, means you get ISPs skimping on on buying more CVC. I'd rather it be the other way around.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  5. caspian

    caspian Member

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    yeah, there's multiple ways of expressing it. carparks at christmas, freeways and trains at peak hour, sucky water pressure when ever bugger in the neighbourhood wants to have a shower at the same time.

    I have a love/hate relationship with analogies because people who don't want to accept the point focus on picking the minutiae of difference out of them instead of seeing the general concept being expressed.

    some so, some do not. I see some quite notable differences by provider.

    and now the low usage users end up subsidising the high usage ones. why should someone with a 50GB data allowance pay most of what someone with a 1TB plan does, when they are consuming a fraction of the resources? user pays works.

    the cost of operating the network is not going to change. all that can be done is redistribute it, and I can't see how any model that results in someone subsidising someone else makes sense. the only person who would like that agree is the one getting the free ride.

    the current system works fine. the main perceived problem with it is that people would just like to pay less (duh) - not that it's flawed.

    the only actual challenge with it I can see is that it's quite expensive per user initially, and it gets better with more and more users per POI. that puts the larger ISPs at a distinct advantage compared to the smaller ones. that has been largely addressed by the recent cost restructure (which will no doubt be fiddled with further as everyone hunts uselessly for a Goldilocks solution), but the bottom line is that smaller operators have a higher proportion of fixed costs in many facets of their operations, and this is just another one.

    that is precisely what they have to do now with other capacity such as external peering and transmission links. the issue is no different.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  6. MR CHILLED

    MR CHILLED D'oh!

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    Sound like I've got a lot to look forward to and a lot to gain :paranoid:
     
  7. kaine88

    kaine88 Member

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    Has anyone had any experience with speed issues related to the coexistance period? I'm currently paying for 100/40 with Telstra however I'm syncing at 40/10. I've spoken to Telstra and they said my line is affected by the coexistance period and to wait a few months until it's over?

    They also say NBNCo estimate that my line is 930m to the node which I think is way more than it actually is. Someone told me I was 630m from the pillar when I was still on ADSL :confused:
     
  8. caspian

    caspian Member

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    coexistence settings will drop speed, yes - how much depends on the exact settings, but if I say 10Mbps downstream that is close enough for most possibilities.

    what you pay for is neither here nor there, what you get is what your line can support. did Telstra use the SQ tools NBN gave them and provide you with an estimate of line capability so you could make an informed ordering choice?

    you may well be 630m from the pillar but the distance from pillar to node has to be taken into account too.

    can you post the stats from your modem? or PM me your address and I'll do it from my end.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  9. caspian

    caspian Member

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    something else that I thought of on the way home... please understand that the current NBN model is extremely like the Telstra Wholesale model, that has been in place and working for years.

    Telstra charge a "port" fee - that's the AVC network fee, a fixed cost.

    they also charge an AGVC fee - that's the CVC, a bandwidth allocation that the ISP chooses, also making a choice of contention ration for all of their services.

    you may not have ever seen ISP congestion on Telstra Wholesale services, but I have - I used to do tier 2 support for the Telstra Wholesale network interconnect (the N-K) product. it happened all the time.


    Telstra's network is structured a little differently to the NBN, but the primary difference is that per ISP, there is only one "POI" per state. there's a bunch of fine grained detail behind that statement (there are actually lots, but each ISP only gets access to one, and it's actually one pair for load balancing and/or redundancy), but that's the primary difference.

    the effect of that is the ISP only needs ONE POI presence per state - one Telstra duct space fee to run a cable in, maybe one rack space fee for a transmission shelf, one optical patch shelf. one (or one pair) of NNI ports, and ONE "CVC".

    that is hugely more cost beneficial for the ISP, because their fixed costs just dropped from 1/number of NBN POIs per state, and their variable costs just got a lot more efficient because larger numbers of users on a larger CVC is a hell of a lot more bandwidth efficient than faffing around with multiple smaller ones.

    so as I said earlier, blame the ACCC for the 121-POI model and how much it costs to service - and that's before NBN had to spend all the money to build the thing!


    the current AVC/CVC model isn't broken. it just costs more that we are used to, because of the network construct it sits on. minor tweaking aside, I cannot ever see that changing much.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  10. kaine88

    kaine88 Member

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    Nope :(

    There's 30m between my node and pillar.

    Maximum Line rate
    10.81 Mbps 48.06 Mbps
    Line Rate
    10.81 Mbps 44.04 Mbps
    Data Transferred
    920.7 MBytes 3134.32 MBytes
    Output Power
    6.3 dBm 14.5 dBm
    Line Attenuation
    0.0 dB 24.0 dB
    Noise Margin
    7.0 dB 7.5 dB

    Thanks very much. I really appreciate the help :)
     
  11. caspian

    caspian Member

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    modem isn't reporting the upstream stats from the DSLAM, but the downstream attenuation does suggest the line length is in line with your idea - maybe a bit shorter.

    any bridge taps/multiple socket inside your house?
     
  12. kaine88

    kaine88 Member

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    Yeah I tried another Telstra modem and it's showing 0 as well. Would you mind checking the upstream on your end? I've sent you a PM as previously requested :)

    There use to be around 3 other sockets but I got a cabler to come in and switch the line (at the grey Telstra box) to another with only one socket. This line has a direct path out to the box so I know it doesn't go in to the roof/to any other outlets.

    After switching the line I gained around 10Mbps downstream but the upstream didn't change at all.
     
  13. Ck21

    Ck21 Member

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    Doest that only effect VDSL2 (aka FTTN) or can it also effect ADSL2+ as well? dropping a 23mbps ADSL connection by 10mbps would be almost cutting it in half...

    FTTN goes live friday (26th) in my area, and i haven't really researched my options (not enough info out there), like do i have to switchover the landline over to VOIP straight away? or try to find a replacement modem/router...

    Really wish they would of done Fibre, so could just be lazy and plug the WAN/ethernet port with some spare cat6 straight into the NTD and not worry about a modem.
     
  14. caspian

    caspian Member

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    it only affects the NBN service. the purpose of coexistence settings is to protect the legacy ADSL service.

    your existing service will be allowed to exist for 18 months before disconnection, in that time you are expected to organise a migration via your provider of choice. your legacy voice service can continue to exist after the migration of the data service but I think you will find your provider will want to migrate the voice too ASAP as it costs them money to maintain the legacy POTS service.

    your ISP should supply you with a compatible modem.

    we'd all like fibre, but we failed to elect a government who wanted to go down that path.
     
  15. Thrawn

    Thrawn Member

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    Telstra's layer-2 wholesale model only applied to like 30% of the DSL network. Most DSL services have competing non-Telstra ports available so all the competitor needed was LSS or ULL copper rental and there was no bandwidth charges from the wholesaler. Especially in metro areas.

    This is why ISPs had unlimited plans for about $60 on their own port. $80 plans with limited quotas on Telstra ports.

    What NBN did is shift NBN pricing towards the more expensive Telstra port plans to all users..
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  16. flu!d

    flu!d Ubuntu Mate 16.04 LTS

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    Funny, I've got a fairly clear recollection of yourself not only deliberately defending the decisions of the current Government after the election in question but actively voting for them!

    It's not a matter of "we'd all like fibre" it's a matter of "it should have been done correctly in the first place instead of the mishmash of technologies we have now".

    Although I'm sure you'll blurt some nugget of information that only you're privy to considering your position, information that no one else is capable of scrutinising.
     
  17. caspian

    caspian Member

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    it applied to a much higher proportion of services than that - ULL circuits were a drop in the bucket compared to Telstra supplied ports.

    there's no arguing that some ULL plans were cheaper than TW ones, but there was plenty of complaints about ULL using bandwidth control tricks like counting uploads too.

    NBN has just used a user-pays structure to billing. it makes sense. all people are arguing about is that it costs more, because it's a brand new network with considerably higher performance potential than the one it replaces.

    maybe, more likely maybe not. pits aren't designed to be waterproof, it's the joints inside them that are (and are the problem when they are not). if a joint gets wet it's sure not going to dry out in hours. think weeks at least.

    shortening the copper line removes the potential for copper based faults, but the reality is that most of the joints are past the pillar, so most of the propensity for joint based issues will continue until fixed.
     
  18. Thrawn

    Thrawn Member

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    ACCC line stats


    2 million ULL/LSS ports. 3 million Telstra ports (both Telstra retail and wholesale).

    A fair chunk of customers on Telstra retail ports would have competing ULL/LSS service available. Telstra sometimes resells their port at more competitive wholesale rates when there's competitor ports available.
     
  19. caspian

    caspian Member

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    you need to distinguish between explaining why something was done and my personal viewpoint on the matter. that I do the former doesn't automatically mean the latter unless I say so.

    for the record, my vote in the last four federal elections I have voted in has been utterly meaningless as I haven't lived in an electorate not held by the sitting part by less than 10% of the primary vote in that time. nor has my vote on any occasion been solely driven by the NBN. I'm far more concerned with the myriad of other significant factors that affect my life, and so apparently were the majority of Australians who didn't place their votes solely on the basis of their bloody internet access either.

    it's not a simplistic matter of that and I'd like to think you might understand so. politics is a self defining science not much dependent on external factors.

    yeah, the reality is I have access to a lot of data that most people don't because of my job. that gives me a certain point of view on the subject and you need to deal with that, whether it aligns with your personal viewpoint or not. that you can't personally verify it independently doesn't change the matter, you're free to believe otherwise (and be wrong) if you wish.
     
  20. caspian

    caspian Member

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    so, as I said - lots less. half as many again TW ports, against every single competitor out there.
     

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