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3D Printer General Chat

Discussion in 'Hobby Engineering' started by Spanos, May 26, 2021.

  1. theSeekerr

    theSeekerr Member

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    I just don't see where you're getting this idea. If the parts cost $2000, there's $2000 worth of parts in the printer. You can't just eyeball a printer and say "I think all that stuff should only cost $600"
     
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  2. garfield2k

    garfield2k Member

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    enders are great value but its built to a price. any corexy printer will set you back a decent amount, not just a voron. up to the user to determine if its worth going that path or not.

    the aliexpress voron kits arent too bad, but some items are questionable in quality so be warned if you go that path. but they are fun to build:lol:
     
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  3. tumutbound

    tumutbound Member

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    Agreed! I'm building a Hevort and cost so far is over $2000. Not sure I could have much saved any money on this build, parts were all bought through Aliexpress (except bearings and fasteners which I got locally). Delays with different delivery times from different vendors is annoying and there were a few misordered parts that had to be re-ordered incurring extra expense (minor as they were small parts) and waiting time.
    Being able to buy a kit would be convenient but no where near as much fun (or as frustrating).
     
  4. Current

    Current Member

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    My nozzle keeps clogging up :'( i have to take it all apart, heat it up and pass a piece of metal through to unclog it.

    if i print 5 degrees too hot or cold it clogs. :(

    I have the Aldi 3d printer, 20x20xm bed, glass plate on the bed and all metal hot end that's supposed to stop this from happening.
     
  5. scips

    scips Member

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    Combing, tell it to only move in infill.

    Also make sure your extruder is feeding accurately, mine was doing this a bunch cause first it was squishing (and feeding bad) so I loosened it off and after some use started slipping during feeding.
     
  6. m3k

    m3k Member

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    a well made ender3 will lay more consistent lines than a voron lol - infact most vorons i see print really poorly - im assuming because by nature they cant be overly tightly built ...

    that being said id rather own a voron all day of the week because of the high speed, enclosed build area for high temp no warp plastics. you can always build tolerances into ur files and at 350x350 im using a 0.6 nozzle anyway i cbf waiting days for prints to finish

    i honestly think the major reason the voron is the success that it is- is because it looks fantastic on your desk! and lets be honest- aesthetics are very important to us- we are human- and the emotional power of a good looking 3d printer can inspire us to be far more motivated and creative!
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
  7. theSeekerr

    theSeekerr Member

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    Ah yes, a completely fair comparison - a hypothetical well-made Ender 3 vs a hypothetical built-by-a-monkey Voron.
     
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  8. Chamelion

    Chamelion Member

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    End of the day, IF prusa would get off their ass and release the XL, we'd probably go with that, but given that it doesn't exist yet (least not until friday) the next best idea to get a 350x350 bed is a self built corexy. Adding to that, we also want a printer thats considerably faster than what we have now for bulk manufacture.

    They're only provided to QLD residents and SA residents who have the appropriate licensing etc. :)
     
  9. Butcher9_9

    Butcher9_9 Member

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    Yes but as you said a Ender purchased as parts costs more than an Ender as a product, so clearly a product can cost less than the sum of its parts.

    As for my estimation, it was based on the number of components. If you look at how much aluminum, number of steppers/ drivers etc the Voron does not have 6+ X as much stuff in it, Its maybe 2 Enders + some linear rails and a bit of extra timing belt. Hell a Voron is pretty much an Ender 5 with more steppers , linear rails and a better controller. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying its a bad machine its just not very good value. Its like buying a BMW (or similar) that you had to build yourself rather than buying a Toyota.

    The reason it costs so much (same applies to the Ratrig, Hevort ect) is that its a low volume machine sourced mostly piecemeal (even the kits) rather than a mass manufactured product like the Ender.

    Which sort of illustrates my point, people build them as a project.

    I bought my Ender as a project and have spent more time upgrading and messing with it than I have done printing parts on it so I understand the mind set. I just can't justify paying $2k+ for what boils down to a build volume increase and a big jump in speed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2021
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  10. SuperRoach

    SuperRoach Member

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    This is some of the most unique arguments against a Voron that I've ever seen, I'll put it that way. A top of the line upgrades to a ender3 will still be beaten by a stock Prusa, and be less reliable. The cost if you are doing that for your first time and it's life time of upgrades will likely have it be more than a stock Prusa as well. I know this, I've done it. Still enjoyed it!

    With a Voron/Ratrig/Hevo, you are also building platform that has community support and development happening to it, and for a tinkerer, that is a lot of fun. Want to try out multiple toolheads on your printer? Nothing stopping you besides time and money sourcing some parts thanks to a person attempting it and sharing their files. Having Z be near the speed that you can move on X and Y? in the future, that may open up for Non planar slicing ( ). Exciting things.

    I feel like there is a bit much over estimation on prices on what things should be as a kit. When they are still moving too fast to reasonably be in a kit, or kits are only just starting to be a thing now.

    In looking for Voron print photos to share that arn't my own (because yes they look great, but I'm biased), I found that there isn't a well populated voron photos list publicly outside of their Discord, so I can see why you would think that you could see "most" of the prints out there, even if they are a bit of a drop in the ocean.

    It's silly to argue about what the "worst" a printer could do. Also about what the supposed cost is, when you literally can get a BoM parts list, which is without a middle man of markup and see what the cost is - you just can't argue that. To say that a printer should only be the cost of 2x enders plus some linear rails just feels like making up some numbers.

    A kit is somone ordering a large batch of parts to lower those costs even further, and as discussed here that is not a total fix - the BoM changes (and may soonish), and some parts are skimped on that most would recommend you do not. Anyway, weird argument. I get the idolising of a Ender3 as a printer that can be transformed into something godlike, but a CoreXY is literally on another tier that it cannot reach anywhere near. A prusa or even less so a Switchwire being cartesion, maybe.

    I'll finish up by posting a video of a youtuber that built a Voron Printer.


    You'll find from his viewpoint that he is excited about it, because Ender and Prusa style printers have plateaud (sp), to the point that they can be a bit boring and samey. The options, future proofing, and amount of things you would learn in building a Voron makes it an excellent choice if you feel the tinkering, patience and cost are in your ball park.

    End of the day, Voron's have a small but nice community helping each other out. If it interests you, go check it out :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2021
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  11. GhettoMat

    GhettoMat New Member

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    Hello person on the internet with an opinion. I hesitate to pop my head out of lurking for something like this but I too am a person on the internet with an opinion!

    The difference here, perhaps, is I have two Voron 2s, one Voron 0, a Prusa Mk3 and an Ender. I have spent the last two years helping establish the Australian community of Voron builders. I've walked a lot of people through building, fault-finding and tuning, one of my V2s has been printing Voron parts 24/7 for new aussie builders over the last few months. The Voron is a pretty marvellous success in the aussie maker community. I guess this success naturally fertilises a kind of person whose hobby is primarily urinating on the fried potato snacks of others.

    Suffice to say I don't recognise anything like this reality you claim. Vorons emerge from the usual learning process of building and tuning a significantly complex DIY build. Building a Voron isn't for everyone, it's expensive, difficult, a hell of a learning opportunity, and there's plenty of times along the way that it's going to 'print poorly', we all have our war stories. However what I overwhelmingly see time and time again are results that end up being indistinguishable from the best results on FDM anywhere at reasonably high speeds and with excellent reliability.

    I love modding an old bed slinger as much as the next man but come on dude, the difference in capability is substantial to put it mildly. Whether it's worth the investment to you is one thing, but can we have less of this unmitigated horseshit about Vorons 'printing poorly'?

    GhettoMat - V2.0295, V2.1620, V0.048
     
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  12. garfield2k

    garfield2k Member

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    thought there wasnt any aussie pif providers? or this outside of that?
     
  13. Dilbery

    Dilbery Member

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    I mean sure, after you've levelled the ender 3s bed 40 times and have nothing but adhesion issues and 100 failed prints before you get something that can even resemble what you wanted to print in the first place. On an actual serious note, you have to be trolling.

    As someone that modded his ender 3 in more parts than it originally cost me to buy the ender, I can 100% confirm this to be true after moving to a Prusa. At the end of the day, a modded ender 3 is still an ender 3 and thats its biggest downfall.
     
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  14. syx

    syx Member

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    Prusa Mafia in the house
    Plebs can bow down
     
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  15. ominae

    ominae Member

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    Outside of that, we call it PIG (makerbogan)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2021
  16. m3k

    m3k Member

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    *edit - removed whining :p*
    please dont miss understand my argument - "but can we have less of this unmitigated horseshit about Vorons 'printing poorly'?"
    edit* I never said the Voron prints poorly as a whole- contextually in terms of uniform layers my experience is that it does- I just have observed first hand and third hand consistently that properly built ender3's will lay plastic more evenly with less aberration than a Voron.

    allow me to elaborate-
    The bowden system in the ender3 smooths out any microstep skipping and - compressing the filament in a spring like fashion-
    now: The vorons belt drive- as seen here:

    the m4 is fine- especially since it increases resolution (most importantly torque) with its belt drive- but it uses bondtech style gears - heres the problem with that :



    Furthermore

    the entire X-Y axis has to be not-ridged In order to align properly when tramming to the bed- if its too tight it cant become perfectly flat ...
    heres the problem with that.
    vibrations from printing will make a flexible gantry wobble.

    Im happy to exchange 3d prints of voron cubes (shipped to eachother)- you print it on you best Voron ill print mine on my 'best ender' - and then we will shine a light top down to view layer inconsistencies- The smoothest wins-
    lets put a poll to the people to judge- i will use a macro lens* and DSLR :D
    AND IM HAPPY TO BE PROVEN WRONG- in fact- if u give me a nicer print i will put my money where my mouth is and buy&build two vorons- Because thats literally one of the only things holding me back - as they're a very good looking machine.

    anyway ill leave u with this
    https://github.com/VoronDesign/Voro...qVNUISrkx-awYMTf_rIOn29-SwRnGKyk0V4EqWIjYchBk

    Also
    have u seen the miniatures printed on ender3s, damn
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5Lbnd97HV3rU98gcwHklzQ
    https://imgur.com/gallery/pvuYDL0

    It.. just seems to print PLA nicer ... thats all im sayin. Not faster. not good for engineering plastics. just nicer layering LOL

    LET ME BE CLEAR
    im not pissing on any voron owners, please be clear- i know there's a lot of *edit Well deserved* emotional love for the Vorons Engineering- its a top tier machine- very aesthetically pleasing and very capable of printing engineering grade parts due to its attributes. I just have OBSERVED first and third hand- that if you're a hobbyist and all you plan on doing is printing PLA miniatures or something- an ender3 is far more suitable and will likely out-perform a Voron, (specifically the 2.4) and im open to discuss this

    my love goes out to the Voron community and I love their work and contribution to 3d printing, and the community that is established are full of intellectual creative people- Just to be clear- Im not a "hater" by any-means.

    sorry if i upset some of you with my comments <3 though i stand by every print ive seen off vorons in person and online, most if not all prints ive seen suffer from inconsistent layering,
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
  17. theSeekerr

    theSeekerr Member

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    I'm not going to reply to that point by point, but... you know you can use whatever extruder you like on a Voron, right?

    And conversely, that you could put a BMG on an Ender, and lots of people do because the stock extruder is a pile of hot shit?
     
  18. m3k

    m3k Member

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    Agreed- and if that is the only reason for the inconsistent layering sign me up. but Im under the impression there may be more to it like the build of the gantry.

    dont get me wrong- the entire ender3 is a 'pile of shit' it just prints nicer layers due to the _WAY_ its built
    it prints slow- its gonna have shittier retracts- cant do flexable filaments- cant do engineering plastics- is not enclosed- its literally a crap printer for anyone doing serious work-

    just so happens that out of the box- at base specs- you get nicer looking layers

    i mean a mate of mine told me they started using injection molded plastic pulleys instead of machiened aluminium ones like wtf is that noise :p

    im eyeing a 500x500 ratrig v core3 and a voron to add to my farm regardless of inconsistent extrusion and slightly shifted layers- they're just gonna be workhorses.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2021
  19. santoitaliano

    santoitaliano Member

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    Hi,

    Finished building a Voron 2.4 a couple of days ago with a mini sherpa and dragon hotend. I can’t share a “best” cube with you as in my two days I’m still learning an awful lot.

    What I can share is my first Voron test cube, literally my first print.

    Using the default baseline profile available, no tuning whatsoever and stock klipper config, this is my cube. (eSun ABS+).

    Coming from a highly modified Wanda i3 clone which was printing pretty sweet - the difference is chalk and cheese. They are in different leagues.
     

    Attached Files:

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  20. GhettoMat

    GhettoMat New Member

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    'The bowden system in the ender3 smooths out any microstep skipping and - compressing the filament in a spring like fashion'

    Haha, oh my aching sides. And there we were spending years tuning out the horrible artefacts from springy bowden shit with pressure advance algorithms when all along it was _helping_? And now you reckon the single sided extruder drive is better than a BMG too? Stop it, you're killing me. Presumably all the fancy shit with input shaper to eliminate ringing which was already _much less_ than any bedslinger is all equally worthless, we should just all run enders instead!

    Issue 6 isn't the BMG thing gear thing in the vid you've linked. Also, I don't know anyone that has it <shrug> Properly aligned BMG idlers do not produce these artefacts, the _world_ would have noticed before now if they did. It's the kind of thing that would have us tearing the toolhead off and trying something else.

    And no, I'm not getting into some kind of competition with you because it's _absurd_. You don't understand what you're talking about. I could print something at 5mm/s on MY ender that'll probably be better than anything you'll do because I'd just smack an accelerometer on it and run input shaper on klipper. Come back when you know what that is.

    God, I hate myself now, why did I do this, can't we just talk about something more _positive_.
     
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