[ADVANCED FORMAT] This is new, what's it all about ?

Discussion in 'Storage & Backup' started by Hentai69, Mar 3, 2010.

  1. Hentai69

    Hentai69 (Banned or Deleted)

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Perth
    i have my own take on this, (have also spoken to some local "techs"), but am still not sure what exactly it's supposed to mean. calling wd tomorrow.

    i'm talking about the jumper setting note. haven't seen that before on a sata drive.

    what do you make of it ?

    i've read the page @ http://wdc.com/en/products/advancedformat/ and whilst i fully understand what is written, it's not clear what the performance gain is supposed to be or what the hell it does.

    because:

    i have it running under xp sp3. originally i did not see that note and simply installed it without a jumper (let alone use their software) just like all my previous sata drives. the bios saw it and the system did too. as far as i was concerned it worked. one of the 1st things i do when i get a new hdd is use hdtune to bench it. i did, and the results were what i'd expect. (see 2nd pic below) i also filled the hdd to nearly capacity (minus around 50gb) all is/was good. the data is there and seems ok.

    anyway, out of curiosity i shut down and jumpered it (7-8)
    upon boot into o/s the drive was erased (but that's cool as everything that i want to put on it is on my pc right now (on a 2tb baby), and on 8gb dl dvd discs as a 3rd backup - yeah i'm paranoid, so no drama at all.) and i had to use computer management to initialize it as a basic drive. in mere seconds i had it as a fresh 1.5tb drive again. ok let's bench it to see what this boost might be. after running the bench it was identical. rebooted, reformated tested again.. same performance. so best i can tell i don't see the point of jumpering it like they say, especially because......===> the reason for this drive is that in the next few days i'm gonna fill it up with "important" data and keep it offsite (parent's place) as one of my "secure" backups. so whilst i'm using xp today, and hopefully i'll never have to use this drive to "restore" the data, but if i do i assume by then i'll be using win7 or better and where does that leave me ? could that in itself cause problems ? since for vista/win7 it should be jumperless, does that mean if i use it jumpered in my current xp setup to backup to it but the restoring will take place in the future on win7 that could be degraded or cause data corruption issues or what ? (calling wd on their 1-800 number tomorrow, i must hear what they say about it.)

    in conclusion i have now had this drive under xp with and without the jumper, benched it under both setups and see no difference at all. i can copy to/from it, have filled it up, erased from it, run chkdsk /f on it, and all is/was/seems ok.

    is the jumpering a con of sorts or what ??



    [​IMG]



    performance looks ok - anyone disputing this ?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2010
  2. schmoove

    schmoove Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    757
    Location:
    Asia
  3. issa2006

    issa2006 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Messages:
    3,147
    Location:
    AUSTRALIA (ADL)
    i have.. its been reviewed..

    iv advoiding the new format.. bad all over (esp in raid).

    im still using xp..


    also, on oldr o/s (inc old hardware (like my divco 5100) pvr it go to backwards compatibility mode (and slows downperformance),,


    just try backing up the drive? (even the latest drive clone pr 7, does not support it) (does any backup software does)..

    any of your advance recovery software, could have recovery issues.. inc prof data recovery..(at the moment).

    what a pain..

    i managed to get some older 32mb 1tb wd hdd...but seagates going to the new format in 2010-11

    get your old model 2tb now..
     
  4. issa2006

    issa2006 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Messages:
    3,147
    Location:
    AUSTRALIA (ADL)
    Exploring WD's Advanced Format HD Technology

    link

    http://hothardware.com/Articles/WDs...vanced-Format-Windows-XP-Users-Pay-Attention/

    good detail on it. read the above review(advance)

    quote"
    The Windows XP Problem

    [​IMG]


    Advanced Format drives emulate a 512 byte sector size, to keep backwards compatibility intact, by mapping eight logical 512 byte sectors to a single physical sector. Unfortunately, this creates a problem for Windows XP users. By default, Windows XP creates a primary disk partition at LBA (logical block address) 63, which is one block short of being evenly divisible by eight. As a result of this offset, data is written across both sides of the 4K physical sector boundary. Read speeds and sequential write speeds aren't as badly impacted by the offset, but the impact on small and random writes is murderous.

    The good news is, Western Digital has already solved the problem. Those of you who want to use an AF drive in Windows XP can either install a hardware jumper (if you plan to use a single, simple partition) or run a software tool called WDAlign. Either solution will restore the drive's full write performance, but WDAlign is what you'll need to use if you've created multiple partitions on a single disk. For our test, we compared the performance of a Caviar Black 1TB (32MB cache, 7200 RPM), and an Advanced Format Caviar Green 1TB (64MB cache, 5400RPM) in 32-bit Windows XP. The Caviar Green was tested both properly aligned and unaligned to highlight the impact of not using WDAlign or setting the requisite


    Debunking the Myth of Additional Drive Space

    We want to clear up some confusion regarding the near-term benefits of Advanced Format. In Western Digital's whitepaper on the subject (PDF), the company states that it can "gain approximately 7-11% in disk space" by using Advanced Format. ECC accounts for 5.5 percent of this; the rest is presumably a mix of efficiency gains in other areas. This has been misinterpreted in a number of circles as meaning that an Advanced Format HDD offers more storage capacity than a normal one. It doesn't—or at least, it doesn't yet. A WD10EARS and a WD10EADS have exactly the same unformatted capacity and Windows reports both drives offer 931GB of storage space.

    Western Digital isn't lying about the efficiency benefits of a 4K sector drive, but the company can use that space in a number of ways. Smaller platters are one option, larger storage capacity is another, and removing the innermost tracks of the platter is a third. This last contains an extra bonus—because read and write speeds are typically reported as an average, knocking off the slowest tracks would make the hard drive look faster in a benchmark without actually changing performance at all. For now, WD isn't claiming that Advanced Format delivers any particular advantage and AF drives aren't carrying much of a premium, if any.

    [​IMG]




    http://www.wdc.com/en/products/advancedformat/

    quote

    "Advanced Format Hard Drive Download Utility
    About Advanced Format Hard Drives



    WD Advanced Format drives are specifically optimized for Mac and the latest Windows operating systems such as Windows Vista and Windows 7 with a clean install. Advanced Format Technology is being adopted by WD and other drive manufacturers to increase media format efficiency, thus enabling larger drive capacities.

    Your WD Advanced Format hard drive may require you to run the WD Align software utility after you install your operating system or partition and format the drive as a secondary drive. WD Align software aligns partitions on the Advanced Format drive to ensure it provides full performance for certain configurations. (Please see table for configuration details)

    [​IMG]

    To create a single Windows XP partition from a clean install, apply a jumper across pins 7-8. If you choose this option, DO NOT run the WD Align utility. Setting the jumper is all that is required to achieve full performance; however, the jumper must be installed prior to drive installation and partitioning. For a clean install of Windows XP into multiple partitions, DO NOT install the jumper, simply run the WD Align utility.

    If you intend to use cloning software to copy any Windows operating system (Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7), to your WD Advanced format drive, the WD Align utility is required. Many cloning software tools are not current enough to take advantage of Advanced Format hard drives and by running WD Align, you will ensure your Advanced Format hard drive operates at full performance."



    http://support.wdc.com/product/download.asp?groupid=805&lang=en

    Downloads
    Advanced Format Software




    WD Align software aligns partitions on the Advanced Format drive to ensure it provides full performance for certain configurations. Click here to learn more about Advanced Format hard drives.
    There are two options for aligning WD Advanced Format drives for optimal performance:

    Option 1 - This is the faster alignment solution, but requires that you create a boot CD from an ISO image using disk authoring software. For a list of popular disk authoring software please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD_burning_software

    Option 2 - This software can be run within Windows, but will take longer to align the drive.

    Please refer to the table below for a comparison of the important features of the two options.



    Option 1: Acronis Option 2: Paragon
    Download File ISO File – must be written to CD to operate – requires user have CD Writer and writable CD media WD Align CD >>
    Windows Installer Program - Installs WD Align program
    within Windows
    Windows 32 bit OS: WD Align System Utility >>
    Windows 64 bit OS: WD Align System Utility >>

    Runs in Windows No – Must boot from CD Yes
    Reboots during operation No – All operations finish from initial CD boot A reboot may be required to complete alignment process
    User Interface Runs a graphic user interface wizard that will guide you through the alignment process Runs a Windows command line shell (AKA "DOS prompt", AKA "Command Prompt")
    Completion Time Depends on the amount of data on the drive but as much as 3 times faster than Paragon software Depends on the amount of data on the drive but generally slower than the Acronis software
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2010
  5. issa2006

    issa2006 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Messages:
    3,147
    Location:
    AUSTRALIA (ADL)
    Windows 32 bit OS: WD Align System Utility - Powered by Paragon

    http://support.wdc.com/product/downloadsw.asp?sid=123

    Back to Advanced Format Software options >>
    Description
    WD Align will allow the user to realign partitions on internal Western Digital Advanced Format Drives (AFDs).
    WD Align is intended to be run on your Western Digital Advance Format drive WITHOUT a jumper installed across pins 7-8.

    WD Align is only necessary for users who have:

    •Installed Windows XP to a WD AFD
    •Cloned a source bootable hard drive with any Windows OS to a target AFD
    •Created single or multiple partitions on an AFD using Windows XP
    The WD Align download file is a Windows installer file. Running the installer will install WD Align and create a Program Start Menu entry and a Desktop Icon for running WD Align.

    WD Align runs in a Command Prompt window, which will open when the WD Align icon is double clicked. All user input thereafter must be done via keyboard response to prompts in the Command Prompt window.

    Supported Operating Systems
    •Windows XP - 32 bit
    •Windows Vista - 32 bit
    •Windows 7 - 32 bit
    Instructions
    1.Optional - Save all data on attached AFDs.
    2.Download the installer file to your desktop.
    3.Double click on the Installer file icon on the desktop to install WD Align.
    4.Double click on WD Align icon to run WD Align.
    5.Follow the directions for WD Align in the Command Prompt window to align partitions on WD AFDs that are not properly aligned for optimal performance.
     
  6. issa2006

    issa2006 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Messages:
    3,147
    Location:
    AUSTRALIA (ADL)
    http://hothardware.com/Articles/WDs...Format-Windows-XP-Users-Pay-Attention/?page=2

    quote

    Western Digital has done a good job of providing the necessary tools to ensure that a new Advanced Format drive works under Windows XP; the benchmark results we've shown you are meant to underscore the need to use the utility and/or jumper setting as the company suggests if you plan to use Windows XP. This last scenario seems likely, given that Windows XP is still the most popular OS according to Steam, with 43.81 percent of the market. Since read speeds are much less affected by the misalignment, anyone who buys an Advanced Format drive and plugs it in without reading the instructions could end up bewildered when the drive performs perfectly in some ways and badly in others.

    As for Advanced Format, there's not currently much to say. Western Digital believes the technology will prove useful in the future and it's true that after thirty years, the 512 byte sector standard was creaking with age. WD is not the only company planning to implement Advanced Format, but it may be a year or so before we can access the true impact of the new standard. The only thing to be careful of when comparing AF and non-AF drives is average transfer rates. This is not currently an issue, and hopefully it never will be, but a manufacturer that uses AF to avoid using the inner tracks of the drive platters can claim higher average transfer rates without actually increasing performance at all. At $84.99 for 1TB, the WD10EARS is a solid value and we'd recommend picking one up if you want a forward-facing storage solution with solid performance and a low price.


    slows down with out alighment?

    howabout pvr and other non pc hardware? ie sony ps3 (xbox 360) pvr tv recorders.. dont get a adf drive (you may have no choice n the future?)
     
  7. Dave2972

    Dave2972 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2007
    Messages:
    1,074
    I guess most people would set the jumper on the drive and use 1 giant partition. On PS3, I think you don't get a choice of more than 1 partition, at least on a 2-3 year old PS3 without updated firmware. My PVR uses EXT3 file system so I think it is not a big issue.

    In the end, it is only going to affect those who want to use more than 1 partition on the drive and are still using XP or earlier.

    For the OP, he bought a green drive so he is more likely to use it as a storage drive and will probably use only 1 partition on the drive so all he has to do is set the jumper on 7-8, format it and fill it up with all his linux ISOs, home made movies and freeware MP3s that he downloaded.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2010
  8. OP
    OP
    Hentai69

    Hentai69 (Banned or Deleted)

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    170
    Location:
    Perth
    good reply. another good article from arstechnica here.

    i think the important thing is that this does not affect you if you intend to only use the drive in one partition and as a secondary "storage" drive, like i am doing. (not an xp boot disk, or using imaging software)

    x
     
  9. issa2006

    issa2006 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Messages:
    3,147
    Location:
    AUSTRALIA (ADL)
    good read..

    avoid new formats..

    esp no standard.

    other hdd makers making their own standards?
    quote

    "Other hard disk vendors are committed to introducing their own Advanced Format drives by 2011, so similar software solutions are likely to appear soon. Non-emulated drives, however, appear to be further off. Except for that legacy annoyance, Windows XP, the software is ready, and has been ready, at least on the Windows side, since 2006. Indications are, however, that the hard disk vendors will be reluctant to ship "native" 4096-byte sector support until Windows XP is much less significant—2012 at the earliest, but worst case as late as 2014 (though enterprise parts might arrive sooner than that)."
     
  10. rowan194

    rowan194 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,030
    Why not just have a jumper that advanced users can pull? Jumper in, 512b emulated, jumper out, 4096b native...
     
  11. Pookey

    Pookey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,861
    Location:
    Sydney
    As far as I am aware, the 4096 byte blocks for HDD's has been a standard since 2006, its just that because XP has/had such a large market share, there was no incentive for manufacturers to manufacture these sorts of drives. Also, the 4096 thing is only a temporary solution I believe. The reason is that 512 byte drives can only have capacities up to 2TB and the 4096 byte drives only increase this to 16TB capacities. This is supposed to tide motherboard manufacturers over until they mass market motherboards with EFI i think.
     
  12. rowan194

    rowan194 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,030
    Seems the XP jumper simply adds 1 internally to the requested LBA, so when XP wants to start a partition at LBA 63 the drive actually writes to LBA 64. This would also mean the boot sector is physically the second sector :)
     
  13. issa2006

    issa2006 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Messages:
    3,147
    Location:
    AUSTRALIA (ADL)
    it seams.. you have problems with 2+ partitions...

    artical states read times even when setup for xp are slower than older hdd.

    wd claims that you get extra sspace is not true..(first art guy test using 2x 1tb hdd wd(old format+ new adf model)


    newer highpoint raid cards can boot up a 2tb hdd or a 6tb raid volumn by adjusting cluster size (iv tried this on raid 0 3g) single partition/volumn

    64bit LBA support greater than 2TB per volume
    via adjusting block size.?/sectorsize?.
     
  14. leighwardle

    leighwardle New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2010
    Messages:
    1
    I bought a new 1TB WD Drive Model WD10EARS and formatted it as a single NTFS partition on my XP machine.

    I attempted to copy about 600 GB from an earlier model – 1TB WD Drive Model WD10EADS.
    After about 8 hours, only about 250 GB was copied, so I aborted the copy. In summary, the copy speed was about 0.5 GB/min – this is painfully slow.

    I then tried to convert the drive using the WD Align software utility – but I abandoned that after it seemed to be taking hours to convert my partition.

    On investigation I found that I could jumper pins 7-8 on the Model WD10EARS if doing a clean install on a single XP partition (see http://products.wdc.com/library/Flyer/ENG/2178-771123.pdf).

    Warning: Don't do the jumper trick unless you are prepared to lose all the data on the drive.

    After reformatting, the copy rate is now about 2 GB/minute, about 4 times faster than the original speed of the drive using default settings.
     
  15. Aetherone

    Aetherone Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2002
    Messages:
    8,543
    Location:
    Adelaide, SA
    I have multiple 15EARS on XP and Win2k3 systems. They function perfectly well if you
    a) use the jumper
    or
    b) align the partition(s)

    Most people seem to be totally oblivious that partition alignment tools and techniques for SSD drives work perfectly well on "Advance Format" mechanical drives.
     
  16. ravencs

    ravencs Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2009
    Messages:
    831
    Location:
    Sydney 2089
    Nice thread.

    Im using 4 x 1.5 TB EARS currently in a perc 6/i raid or Windows 7.

    They seem absolutely fine.

    Should i be worried?
     
  17. SycoVN

    SycoVN Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Messages:
    176
    Location:
    Brisbane Australia
    I picked one up on saturday. Was going to get the quiet samsung but pcshopper was all that was open and they didnt carry them. its in my xp storage box and gets slower the more i copy on. One partition, jumpered from when i put it in. might just be a bung one i guess but its put me off them.

    edit: by slow i mean so slow i cant play a normal quality dvd rip from t over the network.
     
  18. issa2006

    issa2006 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Messages:
    3,147
    Location:
    AUSTRALIA (ADL)
    from what iv read..

    test are showing that under xp (pin compatibility) mode+ alighment.. adf hdd (vs is non adf drive) 1tb black, shows that is overall hdd is slowed down.(on xp) compared to the no adf version of the 1tb hdd..


    its just bad news for xp etc(pvr etc).. also current hdd backing up software does not yet support adf((exp to restore)


    on a ssd note.. (all the backup software) does not restore alighment.. when putinf backup - restoring hdd..
     
  19. issa2006

    issa2006 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2006
    Messages:
    3,147
    Location:
    AUSTRALIA (ADL)
    its for xp//vista...read chart wd...
     
  20. Aetherone

    Aetherone Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2002
    Messages:
    8,543
    Location:
    Adelaide, SA
    Thats not so good. Have you confirmed the slowdown by running any kind of drive specific benchmark?

    Apparently the newest version of Ghost supports correct partition alignment.
    http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showpost.php?p=11629048&postcount=47

    Hang on a sec. You should be doing either the XP compatability mode OR partition alignment. Doing both means you've probably misaligned the partition.
     

Share This Page

Advertisement: