Advice - RAID or Raptor

Discussion in 'Storage & Backup' started by Akh-Horus, Jul 18, 2008.

  1. Akh-Horus

    Akh-Horus Member

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    Wanting to see peoples opinions.

    Specs:
    P4 3.4
    3 gig ddr667
    320 sata2 etc etc

    Wanting to speed things up after I format. I want the main difference to be boot speed and games loading. Do I either:

    (a) Buy another sata drive and go into raid config (which I dont know how to do at this point) or
    (b) buy a 36 gig raptor drive, only 8mb cache but 10000 rpm opposed to 7200 rpm

    I have advice on both fronts via pm but am posting this thread to see what people think. Thanks in anticiapation.
     
  2. issa2006

    issa2006 Member

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    unless yoyu put 4 36g raptors .. dont buy the 36g

    only raptor version in the new vr 300....

    but.. just put 2hhd in raid 0 (640 wd) stripe 32....for fast boot..

    or do like me 4x vr 300 in raid 0
     
  3. OP
    OP
    Akh-Horus

    Akh-Horus Member

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    bumpage - can other people post their thoughts as well please??? :p
     
  4. MichaelMR2

    MichaelMR2 Member

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    Don't bother with raid unless you plan to spend $400+ on a good controller just get a few 10k raptors and spread your system across them (OS on first, Page/games on second or something)

    onboard raid is always horrid..possible exception is always the latest intel ICH..but they are still not to be trusted imho
     
  5. feistl

    feistl Member

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    Sell mobo/CPU. Buy a new CPU/Mobo combination. Either AMD or Intel and overclock.
     
  6. OP
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    Akh-Horus

    Akh-Horus Member

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    Oh I'm planning on that lol.

    Thanks for the input guys, so the increased speed of the raptor as a inital boot drive is worthwhile you think? I'm only planning on inital boot and perhaps 2 games on that drive, used the other hard drives as storage only. I seem to be getting positive feedback in relation to that idea.
     
  7. HeXa

    HeXa Member

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    Raptors are good for boot/OS drives due to their seek times

    I've been using a 36GB one for quite awhile for this reason.... though in next week or so it will be moved to another box once I get SCA80 adaptors from my 15k SCSI drives (stupid backplane is limiting my transfer rates to 50MB/s when the drives can do 90+ each :()
     
  8. SyK

    SyK Member

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    It's been stated a few times already but to make it blunt, RAID is useless.

    For the amount of effort and general bullshit involved, on a normal desktop system, for normal usage, there is absolutely no point.

    Raptors are great for a boot drive and you might get a little snappier performance (I used a couple of the 74s back in the day) but it's a "slight speed boost at any cost" purchase, like SLI, etc. If you don't have everything else already maxed (as you clearly don't), it's a stupid purchase.

    Any other more modern drive than what you have is likely to give you most of the advantage, twice the storage, and cost half the price.

    Tbh these days I'd rather grab a 64-bit OS and dump in 4/8GB, should be a similar price, then get cheaper drives with a buttload more storage, overall it'll be a much better system.

    Even if you only look at the disk, with the speed boost you'd already get from any recent drive, think about it this way, would you rather save 4 seconds booting, or have 700GB of storage?

    ... though all of that said, on re-reading initial post, wtf are you doing worrying about "disk drives for boot time" on that system? :sick:
    You could probably get an E2220 or similar and a mobo to suit for what you'd be paying for an HDD, for an insanely more useful upgrade...
     
  9. OP
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    Akh-Horus

    Akh-Horus Member

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    Yeah I agree that my current system is certainly not high spec at all....but there are plans to go dual core in the future.....may even snap up a cpu and mobo off someone from the forums in the future.

    I will be running my XP still but will have Vista Business run thru Virtual PC, may even format and start clean, but essentially I just want my PC to boot quickly and games to not be slow if I can speed it up by using a Raptor, a 36gig Raptor seems to sell 2nd hand on the forums for about $50 or you can buy them brand new with 16mb cache for $119.

    I suppose my inital thread wasnt worded as well as I wanted, but my computer experience with todays technology isnt the greatest which is why I am asking my more learned forum members their opinion. My other question is would I notice the difference between a 8mb cache and 16mb cache raptor with what I have now and a medium dual core cpu?

    Appreciate the posts so far, any more?
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2008
  10. issa2006

    issa2006 Member

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    I disagree on the raid is u?? part ...is their a god vs their is a god.... question....
     
  11. decayingcorpse

    decayingcorpse Member

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    i agree, i've got 2 36gig raptors running raid0, it was good while the novelty was there, but working with this machine for a couple of years it slowly gets tiresome. throw a couple of failures into the mix, coupled with slowish boot times, game loads and generally waiting for the machine to figure out what the hell its doing and you may get my point.

    unless you are going to spend top dollar and get a "proper" raid card its not worth buggering around with onboard raid. spend less money and get one of the new velociraptors and run it as a single.
     
  12. OP
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    Akh-Horus

    Akh-Horus Member

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    So running a raptor pair in raid isnt such a good idea I take it? From the part "throw a couple of failures into the mix" does this mean the raptors are prone to failure?

    I've scanned ebay (yes I hang my head in shame) and the online listings, a raid card can be had for say $30 and should I consider just buying another 320gb sata2 hard drive and raid them or should I get say a 36gig raptor, boot from this and leave my current hard drive as storage?
     
  13. LeBlur

    LeBlur Member

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    If you want a fast boot time I would look at getting a 32G SSD, they are dropping in price and you can pick them up for $200. They beat any raid system hands down.
     
  14. SyK

    SyK Member

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    36GB Raptor? I just read your reply, but really, they still exist? :sick:

    As I said, Raptors are an "Everything else is done" upgrade! And even then, only the newest model is ever going to be worth bothering with.

    Given that any of the newer 7,200 drives were pretty much keeping up with the 150s for most tasks, which should obliterate the 36GB, it's just a drive that no longer has any point. :thumbdn:

    ( It's not hard to find details about that, but an example: http://www.storagereview.com/WD3000BLFS.sr?page=0,3 )

    And again, RAID is pointless, pointless, pointless for what you want to do. Don't even bother mentioning/thinking about it again. :p

    Yes, a decent speed 7,200 SATA is your best option, but just plug it in and use it, you'll see just as much benefit, without risking your data, or all the dicking around.

    For boot times, perhaps, just, over a Raptor, but with one that cheap you're going to have all sorts of other annoying issues. (Shit write speeds ahoy!) Forget about SSDs for now on this sort of a budget.



    I know it's the same thing I was saying before but since it apparently got totally ignored, if you're that desperate for a disk upgrade, just go grab a nice big, new, 7200 drive, whatever size you can afford. A velociraptor would be better, yes, but apparently you can't afford it and any other sort of Raptor is just out of date and you end up with a tiny drive for no real performance advantage.

    And still seriously consider upgrading everything else in your system first, talking about putting raptors and things into a P4 system when for the same price you could probably get an E2220 that'll give you the same clocks from a Core 2, is just ridiculous. You want to save a few seconds in boot time? You'll probably get that anyway, and the system as a whole would be at least 50-60% faster. And that's ignoring the dual cores! :Paranoid:

    Perhaps you're overestimating how much difference a quick disk makes to a system? Ever actually seen one running? Try to find one and see, sure it's nice, but compared to more than doubling your CPU power...
     
  15. proffesso

    proffesso Member

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    low end SSD write speeds may be somewhat slower, but really...what are you doing with your PC most of the time? playing games, running programs....or installing them?
     
  16. SyK

    SyK Member

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    How many people have less than 32GB in apps to install and run?

    It sounds like you'd barely get a basic system install on there these days, and with game installs hitting 10GB each? :wired:

    SSDs for high-end, sure! But on this sort of budget, in 6 months, maybe? A year, probably, but not yet.

    ( And even if you are that obsessed that your entire universe does revolve around boot time the benefit involved really is very questionable at this level of SSD vs. Raptors, which makes it only another small step to 7200s, really. Example: http://www.madshrimps.be/vbulletin/f22/ocz-ssd-32gb-solid-state-hard-disk-review-45915/ )


    As I mentioned earlier, for normal uses, at the moment, these things are like SLI. You're paying a whole heap, for minor improvements. Though both SLI and SSDs are getting to be better value at a pretty alarming rate, here and now, they're just not quite there yet.

    For the last couple of years Raptors, and now SSDs especially, are an absolute top-end upgrade.

    I'd suggest required components of a decent modern system:
    3.2GHz+ quad-core Core 2, 8GB RAM, recent high-density high-capacity storage drives (640/1TB disks), decent modern chipset motherboard.

    And for gamers a high-end video card, 4870/280GTX and up.

    And this is all just for speed purposes. For overall "quality of life", you're probably wanting at least a nice quality 24" monitor, decent sound card, speakers, keyboard and mouse, etc first.

    If you've already got all of those, then the raptors are going to be a nice addition.

    Of course the order you should get these bits in depends on your usage patterns and so on. Yet for any normal use every single one of those is going to be a much better overall upgrade and as such give you much better value than a low-capacity very-high-speed disk.
     
  17. proffesso

    proffesso Member

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    8gb of ram required? i'd say 2gb required, 4gb for highend and 8gb for power users.

    and yeah 32gb is a bit slim, I guess its fine for me, as the biggest game I run is Mame :)
     
  18. SyK

    SyK Member

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    It's not essential, sure, but Vista is a dog on 2GB, and in terms of overall benefit you're going to get a hell of a lot more from 8GB than you are from a high-speed disk. Would you rather be able to load things into RAM slightly more quickly, or only ever have to do it half as often? :p

    Of course I'm a very heavy user but even for gaming, FWIW I did notice a pretty significant benefit in playing Crysis, in terms of in-game objects loading, moving from 4GB to 8GB on Vista 64-bit, and in general usage it's really pretty damn handy.

    Fair enough though, for a MAME it'd be totally different, I reckon they'd be an awesome option!

    Nice underclocked/volted cheapy dual-core in an mATX or whatever with onboard video and one of these cheapy SSDs would make an awesome silent mini box, great toy to chuck next to the tv, etc. :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2008
  19. jastormont

    jastormont Member

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    Good post and recommendation.

    Only 2 things I reckon are not required as a must and that is a Quad core will do and 8 gig ram, dual core and 4 gig should be fine.

    But good advice.

    RAID is good and you just have to take the time to investigate. I think it is not the best upgrade in your position, but it is worth considering down the track perhaps. Remember most motherboards and cheap RAID controller cards are only software controlled and not hardware. To get a proper Hardware RAID controller you are looking around $300 and up I think from memory. Software is still OK but not as pure as Hardware controlled.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2008
  20. SyK

    SyK Member

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    Oh, sure, for most people they will, no doubt about it. But that's not what I'm saying. What I'm trying to say is that in terms of overall system performance and 'feel', even upgrading to such a 'crazy' level, these upgrades are all going to be better than a raptor/SSD boot disk and are actually even cost-competitive at the moment!

    Say you have the dual-core and 4GB. Without even selling whatever your dual core is, velociraptor - $350ish, Q9450 $350ish.
    In fact you could probably even do both! - Q6600 @ $220ish and the extra 4GB 6400 @ $130ish, if you're on DDR2.

    All to save on a little boot time, when you could do these instead and be increasing overall performance by a substantial amount, for the same cost? You'll probably see boot/app performance improve a fair bit anyway, especially under Vista with the additional RAM.

    If you already have a system at that level, have the cash to splash and want that little extra mile, great. But if you don't, the high speed disk is a stupid move. :p

    Again, it's like SLI; the only time it makes sense is when you have every other component in the system at the highest (within reason, of course) level of performance, and want to put it up that little bit further. Until you've hit that 'very-high-end' point, you're better off focusing on the base machine.
     

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