Apple Vs Intel Conroe for graphic design

Discussion in 'Programming & Software Development' started by Hamulus, Nov 8, 2006.

  1. [KEi]SoVeReIgN

    [KEi]SoVeReIgN Member

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    Macs aren't that bad value anymore when you compare them to their same specced Windows counterparts. (Yes, even custom built stuff)

    Mac stability being worse than XP is rubbish.

    I work in an advertising agency in IT and have both a mac and a couple of PCs sitting on my desk - I havent restarted my mac in ~6months, and although my XP machine is generally fine its definently no mac.

    Some of the designers around here are getting around with Quads with 6 ~ 8gb of ram, can never have enough ram when dealing with large/raw files in photoshop/indesign etc.

    If you work/freelancing for agencies you will most probably be using macs - And places generally wont want you sitting around on you ass not being productive while you familiarise yourself with the system. Best to use what you will be using.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2006
  2. xsive

    xsive Member

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    There's quite a bit more to it than that. You can show all open applications, all windows of the current application or just show the desktop and then flick back to what you were doing. It's very efficient; the only thing lacking is support for multiple desktops.

    Windows' taskbar gets cluttered as hell to the point where you can't tell what anything is and I hate the way it groups windows atop one another. Expose is the shit. Once you've used it for serious work you'll begin to appreciate it more.
     
  3. LeFtBehinD

    LeFtBehinD Member

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    Maybe your res is pretty low cause with widescreen and 2 rows in the taskbar that is never the case.


    Thats a setting you can easily change. I doubt anyone would use that, lol it is pretty stupid.

    I think I will have to play around with it more.
     
  4. xsive

    xsive Member

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    It's default and it's rubbish. Also, I am using a widescreen monitor and I don't want a 2-row taskbar because it irks me AND it makes little difference because I have so many damn windows open, often multiple instances of the same application so finding what I want is a nightmare.

    I don't care which way you slice it: Windows' stupid taskbar sucks. Enough said. It's ugly, non-intuitive and hinders where it should help.

    Do that. You might be pleasantly surprised.
     
  5. Talleh

    Talleh Member

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    Well, I use both Mac and PC for design as I am studying it as well and am two days away from finishing my last year in Print Design.

    Basically I use a PC for games/fun and a Mac (Laptop for portability) for work, mac's are more common in the industry these days and of course have the market over the pc in design. Just an opinion, but your friend may want to use a mac so he can get used to an "industry standard".

    Generally companies want skills in both OS' and the ability to use Adobe/Macromedia/QuarkExpress in both environments as the hotkeys DO differ and the knowledge is just as important as skill.

    The Intel macs at the moment DO have issues with running CS/CS2 as they are NOT universal binary, lags the system up a bit, but as I am doing, not buying a new mac till CS3 is released =)

    Good luck to your friend but ultimately it is up to personal choice and what suits you more and spending a little extra money is sometimes worth it, as ive probably learnt in the past two years of design with a ibook g4 vs a macbook and a macbook pro.
     
  6. BenZor

    BenZor (Banned or Deleted)

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    In Summary:
    I've breifly read this thread.

    "Graphics design is all CPU intensive and needs no ram"
    - Bullshit, Budget 2 gig ram MINIMUM to run photoshop / illustrator with minimal lag issues

    In regards to the Mac vs PC Debate.

    There is a reason Mac's have been used for design.
    It used to be the PowerPC RISC processors, however now, it's coming more down to the fact that MacOS is MUCH better OS at handling memory than Windows is.

    Infact, I've loaded Windows Vista, and Photoshop up, on a Dual 3.16GhZ System, with 4 gig of ram, and watched it grind to a halt trying to load a 300 meg PSD file, yet my macbook pro, which is a dualcore 2.16ghz, with 1 gig of ram, opened the file in about 8 seconds.

    Look, to be honest, You seem to be biased and pushing the whole "MACS SUCK LOL" and come across as having absolutely no clue at all, nor caring about your friend, you blow your Conroe trumpet every 2 posts.

    Let's do it this way.

    OS Stability - MacOS Wins
    Industry Standard - MacOS Wins
    Memory Management - MacOS Wins
    File Management - MacOS Wins
    Virus Management - MacOS Wins (Lets face it, a designer WILL receive a lot of attachments etc)
    - Ease of Backup / Migration - MacOS Wins.

    Look Here

    Fairly low priced, add in some more ram, and away you go.

    Basically, get over your personal opinion, yes, a "WOOHOO CONROE FOR $1000" might be cheaper now, but it's not going to last, especially when Vista comes out. Nor will it be the best for your friend.
     
  7. proffesso

    proffesso Member

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    thats pretty messed up, I never had any probs, or severe performance issues between the workstations and the G5 mac's.

    300mb psd, on a macbook pro with 1gb? yeah...maybe 1 layer. but seriously, thats chewing most of your ram, probably hitting scratch, which in turn on a 5400rpm notbook drive would NOT be fun.

    Shake 2.5 is faster on dual opteron 265 than on a quad G5....now they are both intel, there should be next to no differnce whatsoever.
     
  8. VZey

    VZey Member

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    a mac doesn't allow me to work as quickly as a pc.

    why? because it does strange things with my apps, like having them see-through around the windows down to the next window instead of taking up the whole screen, so i click and i accidently get the window behind. apple tab will only tab between apps and not between all open windows. its little annoyances like this that make me less productive, like the way the 'finder' works.
     
  9. xsive

    xsive Member

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    All your annoyances stem from ignorance. Expose is the answer to your window-finding woes and changing the way you look at windows will cure your zoom-in, zoom-out woes. Or just drag the thing to full-screen.

    The only times I've been able to identify a need for a totally full-screen experience is while using the terminal and working across many screen sessions.
     
  10. OP
    OP
    Hamulus

    Hamulus Member

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    Optical mouse? PLEASE! Quality keyboard? Do they include a "quality A drive" as well. There's another $5 right there! Apple charge $239 for a 7300GT! $1150 for a 20inch LCD! Keyboard and optical mouse is like $10 worth, though "special Apple ones" are probably worth hundreds!

    Octy, dude, keep reading. The decision has been made. Yes, that's great advice, but he'll be using Final Cut Pro, so having a PC will not do him much good. Personally, Apple prices still make me gag, but it's not FOR me, so I still have to advise him (after all the OCAU wise council) to get a Mac. Seems a Mac is a no-brainer for graphic design. And that's exactly what he will purchase when he's lived on stale payless cheese and bread-crusts for a few more months. Ahh, the joys of being a student!

    Thanks again to all those who CONTINUE to offer advice, but this bird has flown! By all means discuss the wisdom of it, as there may be others facing a similar dilemma... I know how Pandora must have felt now, trying to get that damned box closed again... :)
     
  11. proffesso

    proffesso Member

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    out of interest, what kind of price can you get a dual 2.66 woodcrest, 5000X mobo, psu, 7300GT ( :tongue: ) and a 1gb of FBDIMM for? (not to mention case, mouse, keyboard etc)
     
  12. Talleh

    Talleh Member

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    Final Cut Pro? Pardon? Last I hear Graphics Design students used MAINLY;

    *Photoshop
    *ImageReady
    *Illustrator
    *InDesign
    *Quark Xpress
    *Macromedia Flash
    *Macromedia Dreamweaver

    Never in my LIFE have I heard of any DECENT designer going near Final Cut Pro

    As for that, i've used the SAME Macbook Pro he has (As I stole it while my macbook is being repaired by Apple) and I've opened an A2 PSD file of ~600 MB, Around 30/40 layers in less than a minute, they handle files better, my pc keeled over and died when opening something that large, then again my pc isn't anything special these days, but is still fairly able.

    A little app called Quicksilver helps (I don't use it but many of the first year students do as I have no issue with windows), using the "+" on most windows makes them as large as the screen and Apple+~ switches between screens on most apps.
     
  13. xsive

    xsive Member

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    Hamulus,

    I can appreciate where you're coming from because I used to think exactly like you. The thing is, you can't fairly compare macs and IBM compatibles (heh, I guess they're both IBM compatible now) by just looking at hardware/cost. When you invest in a mac you're buying a complete platform not just some disparate bits that may or may not work together.

    This is the reason companies buy from places like Dell instead of building their own machines or just getting whatever is cheaper. You need to know what's under the hood so you can guarantee support. Apple does this very well and it's a big plus in their corner. The other thing is, the software you get utterly trounces everything else (Linux, Windows etc) on the desktop. OSX is simply more productive, more usable and more efficient than any other competitor. This isn't limited to graphic designers; I develop for a living and I much prefer to work on OSX than Windows or (sometimes even) Linux.

    Stuff is easier to drive, easier to find, easier to manage, easier to recover from erros and easier to administer. Do you have any idea how cool it is to open Terminal and have a BSD box at your fingertips? the words "insanely awesome" spring to mind every time I think about it. I can grab darwinports or fink and install anything I want from the world of open source software. Heck, I can even run an X11 desktop from inside Aqua!

    I used to think like you because I was using my PC as a hobby box. I'd tinker, overclock, play games and do the occasional assignment for school and later uni on it. Over the years my priorities changed and other things like stability, usability, openness and integration became the key things I started to look for in a box. When you equate things like that Apple immediately jumps to being one of the leading contenders.

    Price is nice but there's alot more to a computer then how much it costs. Besides which, my ibook, purchased last year, with a student discount and under salary sacrifice, cost me ~$1100. I couldn't even begin to find a portable with similar specs for that kind of price.
     
  14. Semi-Evolved

    Semi-Evolved Member

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    Which software? Half of the software I'd use on Mac machines is the exact same software I use on my PC; Microsoft Office, Firefox, Eclipse, World of Warcraft, vim, etc. The rest is functionally identical, or won't run at all (ie, most other games and some windows-specific development tools).

    All of that assumes that you've got useful apps that actually require a Unix console or X11. Never mind the fact that you can get any of that on Cygwin anyway, and can now use the excellent Windows Powershell (which is quite possibly the most powerful shell environment I've ever encountered; it's verb-noun command structure is very intuitive, easily extensible, and well integrated into the rest of windows and the .net platform).

    I'm primarily a Java/SQL developer, doing most of my work in IBM RAD (an eclipse derivitive), Clearcase, Lotus Notes, Toad for Oracle, IE6, Microsoft PowerShell, and Explorer. Excluding the apps that don't actually run on MacOS, what exactly does it offer me that's better for my work than what I already use? Aesthetics and the like don't matter to me. What does a Mac offer for me that my PC can't already do?
     
  15. proffesso

    proffesso Member

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    that was already posted before...if you dont have a specific need for OSX, then go the pc route if asthetics dont please you. (hate to see your dress sense :tongue: )

    some of my apps are OSX only, while yours are Win only, nothings differnt.

    and all the other people who use mac's that dont require certain applications? they just choose becuase the OS and hardware design is what they like.
     
  16. Semi-Evolved

    Semi-Evolved Member

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    My dress sense is fine; I just don't overly care about "pretty" colors or themes in my user interfaces (in cases like brushed metal, i actively despise them). Personally I care more about UI consistency, which is something MacOS doesn't even have within the standard OS-bundled applications. MacOS gives the feel that half of the developers like brushed metal and the other half the original aqua style, and that they've split their usage in the OS 50/50 to placate everyone. Microsoft apps have often provided their own standard widgets, but ultimately they tend to fit in with the overall system (for example, Office's toolbars change with the overall windows theme). An even better example of good UI consistency is something like Gnome on Linux; their user interface guide is followed to the letter, with system wide thematic settings actually used by the entirity of the interface.
     
  17. xsive

    xsive Member

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    OSX. It's a far more pleasant and powerful environment to hack in than Windows will ever be. Spotlight and Expose alone are compelling enough but then there's things like two finger trackpad scrolling and keyboard shortcut support built from the ground up (not tacked on in a horrible mess like Windows shortcuts that really aren't.. or aren't obviously documented). I also find the entire workflow more intuitive than either Windows or Linux once you adjust to the mac environment.

    No, it doesn't. All those benefits i listed (easier to this, that and the other) are available to anyone regardless of wether you use the OS like a mac or like a BSD. Show me the kind of robust Wireless support that OSX gives me under any other platform. Point me in the direction of the Windows tools that let me setup and customise firewalls, ftp servers, http servers, windows sharing, appletalk sharing, ANY kind of sharing by checking a couple of tick boxes.

    Cygwin is extra and not as nice as having a proper Unix box. Also, Cygwin doesn't give you support for BSD-style package management options ala darwinports or fink. I'm not familiar with Powershell but I will say it would take quite some doing to outdo the flexibility and robustness of Unix scripting out of the box. *sh, sed, awk, the GNU toolchain -- it's a seriously powerful development environment.

    I've barely scratched the surface here. Apple offers some terrific developer extras for *free* that don't compare with anything from MS.
     
  18. OP
    OP
    Hamulus

    Hamulus Member

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    I WOULDN'T!!! FBDIMM?! Who needs it?! I can build an E6400 system for around $1000. That's with 2G RAM and 7900GS. Your dual 2.66 woodcrest system is going to be 4 or 5 times faster than this? I seriously doubt it! That is not bang for your buck! I'd rather have 4X E6400 systems in a network! Actually, I'd rather just keep the money in my pocket. 5000X mobo indeed. A 965 chipset is more than enough at the moment.

    I understand that it is a "finished product" you are getting with an Apple machine, and I think they are probably better value than HPs or Compaqs, and I can even understand my friend wanting one because the industry he is entering is awash with them. I am sure they are high quality, reliable and bla bla bla. But they are also extremely expensive! I also find it hard to respect a company who still want 2X the price for components after they already have $4000 of your money. They couldn't give you an e-penis discount or something?

    For those that say "use one, and then you'll understand" I say, "I already have a reasonably expensive computer habit. I don't need to escalate it!" I don't want to offend all you Apple fanbois. I'm an AMD fanboi (hurting at the moment), so I understand the fanboi mindset. Yet I am not trying to convince anyone else to buy AMD, because it is NOT where the best bang for buck is now. I have advised my friend to buy Apple, but for myself there would be little point!
     
  19. proffesso

    proffesso Member

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    you seem to miss the point, but not to worry. i'll explain it!

    time = money...if you have a large, powerful machine, and can get work done quicker....you get more jobs, bigger jobs, better paying jobs.

    hence time is money. dropping 5k on a workstation is nothing in the production world. and no studio in thier right mind would custom build machines.

    not all things work over a network either, otherwise you would hundreds of little celeron machines instead of those 8, 16, cpu machines.


    so in this little realm of the woods, its a very valid point the price between a Dell workstation and Apple. and apple has priced themselves very, very nicely.
     
  20. Semi-Evolved

    Semi-Evolved Member

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    Spotlight's worthless to me; I know how to organise my files. But if you want it anyway, there's a workalike in Vista or several third party tools for XP. Expose is only necessary due to the way MacOS X handles windows and the like. In Windows I can just click on the application I want on the taskbar.

    As for being more "pleasant and powerful", that's in the eye of the beholder. Different colored buttons and a giant icon-based dock do not a more pleasant interface make. I've yet to read about any MacOS functionality that Windows doesn't a) already have, b) doesn't need because of design differences, or c) can't easily install with a common third-party utility. Before you go off on a tirade that Microsoft should include all of it by default, keep in mind that Microsoft have to tread pretty carefully when considering new utilities to add to the system, given the numerous organisations out to get them for antitrust violations.

    I can't say I've ever had any problems with Windows' wireless support. What exactly makes MacOS' any better?

    As for the rest:

    Firewalls: Windows comes with one these days, enabled by default.
    FTP and HTTP: Windows has shipped with IIS for HTTP and FTP server ever since Windows 2000 was released.
    Windows Sharing: Windows supports by default.
    Appletalk Sharing: Not provided, given the extremely low demand.

    Each of those features that Windows supports is either installed by default, or by two or three clicks in Add/Remove programs in the case of IIS. Please, show a deeper ignorance of Windows' capabilities and functionality. And if any of those provided aren't your favourite flavor of HTTP or FTP, you can quite easily install any third party tools you want.

    Powershell's that and more. It's entirely object-oriented for one; where a unix command line returns text-based results that usually need to be processed with sed/awk to make sense of, Powershell cmdlets can simply be strung together, passing the objects directly for processing. It completely obviates the need for tools like awk/sed in the first place. If you really want sed/awk though, there's nothing stopping you from using a win32 port of them alongside PowerShell.

    As an example, just say I wanted to kill all tasks using > than 10mb of RAM.

    Compare ksh:
    $ ps –el | awk ‘{ if ( $6 > (1024*10)) { print $3 } }’ | grep –v PID | xargs kill
    with PowerShell:
    PS> get-process | where { $_.VM –gt 10M } | stop-process

    get-process and stop-process both have numerous aliases defined for the standard unix or prior windows commands, so you could even write it as:

    PS> ps | where { $_.VM –gt 10M } | kill

    Once you've familiarised yourself with it, it's an easier, far more powerful environment to use. I say this as someone who's been using various unix shells on Unix machines and via cygwin for the best part of a decade.

    As for your distaste of cygwin, it's irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that it gives full access to the GNU toolchain on a Windows box. If you prefer that to learning PowerShell, it's a very viable option. And Cygwin's installer does actually have that sort of installation flexibility. Full package management, installation and uninstallation. It's in a different format, but ultimately does the same thing.

    And if you really refuse to use Cygwin, Microsoft provide Services for Unix, which is a full unix subsystem for Windows. It has equal access to the system as the regular Win32 or Win64 subsystems that most Windows applications use. It actually ships by default with several Vista variants now.

    Once again, you have no idea just what Microsoft actually provide. The entire .net SDK is free to start with, as are Express editions of the entirety of Visual Studio. Even those are more capable development tools than the usability mess that is XCode (here's a hint; every single other popular IDE has a tabbed interface with dockable bars for a reason). Personally, I mainly develop in Java, so I use Eclipse/IBM RAD, which is also a far more capable development tool than XCode.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2006

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