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Canon EOS R5

Discussion in 'Photography & Video' started by EvilGenius, Jan 29, 2020.

  1. Deftone2k

    Deftone2k In the Darkroom

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    They definitely have finally come to the party. How quick people forget that the R system was a relatively lacklustre launch (when was that Oct 2018 release?) and very typical of what Canon have done for many years (in holding back features/abilities to consolidate product lines). They have built on that now, but there are plenty of people who had high hopes and were let down and jumped off the Canon train. That's Canon's loss and that is fine.. It's just like politics of being like 'Oh lets just conveniently forget about everything before this'.

    I have no regrets because I have spent a couple of years using a far superior system than what I had before. For someone who shoots at a high volume that is a very long time.

    I would have no problem with the R5 setting the new standard/bar for everyone to get to and surpass. That is the whole point of competition right? Something I have said all along. The thing is if Sony didnt come along and start reaching far beyond what was currently on offer (or bring mirrorless to the level it at now) we would probably be looking at a 5D Mark V with average specs. So I am happy with it working both ways :)

    The A7r4 has been out for what 6 months already? People forget just how quickly Sony has been churning out revisions and new versions (Think it was like 20 months between the r3 and r4). It's exciting. The A9II was not exciting, it was an updated release for sports shooters for the olympics and brought out prematurely for that. End of the day though, if this pushes Sony to push the limits in their next releases (A74, A7s3 (rumoured for April announcement))... its exciting times. Well you know without current events of the world going on.

    When it comes to spec comparisons though it's so different for what YOU want out of a camera and how that stacks up. Where does a camera comparison really lie? I am happy that Sony have different lines with different focuses, unless its an apples to apples though what is better? A top line body that tries to tick all the boxes but maybe lacks in one/few areas vs the rest or ones that cater for what people want to shoot. I kind of like having different lines for focus, but also have enjoyed one camera that can do it all.

    I shoot A73's because for me they are the perfect balance of what I want for weddings. They are crazy bang for buck... not high end by any means but the performance level at their price point is crazy. A9's are tempting but there are reasons why I didnt go that way. End of the day though what is the real world experience in using these cameras? On paper it means shit if its crap to hold or doesnt quite perform how it should. I am surely never thinking about other cameras whilst I am out shooting... just what isnt great on my current one. As far as eye AF implementation is going already I mean its amazing as it is now, I can only imagine it will get better but how much better can it get?

    I am not a brand fan boi by any means. I started off shooting Nikon, spent many years with Canon and am happy where I am with Sony. I have no problem moving systems back to Nikon/Canon or whomever steps up to the table with the best offerings available which make the most business sense for me. I just rather brands are held accountable for the good and bad decisions they make.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
  2. Xang

    Xang Member

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    The 8K video is very impressive. That sets a new standard. It is also reasonable that very, very, very few people will want/need this camera to produce 8K videos.

    I am a photographer. Looking at the R5 objectively (vs my A9ii kit), it offers

    - f/1.2 over f/1.4 in a 50mm and 85mm focal length
    - a usable touchscreen

    - an extra 20MP of resolution if it can shoot silently with no rolling shutter (unlikely)
    OR
    - the option to sacrifice ~20MP of resolution vs Sony for the ability to shoot 20fps vs 10fps (A7R4). Not sure what possible use case there is for this.

    There has been no indication of beating out Sony in AF, IQ or new features. Nice improvements for sure, but nothing compelling enough to swap systems for.

    It's understandable how this seems like a huge leap for existing Canon shooters.
     
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  3. OP
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    EvilGenius

    EvilGenius Member

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    I'm not a brand fanboi either. I started this thread because there wasn't one yet. And I'm having a little chuckle to myself because for the years before this I've been having similar discussions with other photography mates, only talking about Sony's capabilities.

    As I posted earlier in this thread, I'm pretty sure the Canon 'cripple hammer' has largely been about their lack of processing capability. The digic processors just weren't fast enough so they lagged heavily behind. I'm sure there was still a mix of protectionism in there, but I also think that was likely due to trying to maintain product separation, which could be hard to manage when the best of what you can do is already limited. I'm not going to argue that that was the right way to go about things, it's just what I think happened. Sony on the other hand seem content to put the best of whatever they come up with in their newest release device, which given their relatively late entry into the camera market vs canon and nikon etc, kinda makes sense too. I'm right there with you on competition being good. I just rile at comments like this camera being like an A7R3, when that clearly undersells the promise of this camera, and if someone weren't to know better, smells of sony fanboi-ism :)

    First I'd say, please go back and read all the times I wrote 'if'. I'm just talking about what this camera *might* be able to do. We all get to sit back and find out when it's released what it *can* actually do.

    For your question about the purpose of the frame rates etc, sports shooters in particular should appreciate that. 12fps vs 10 is still an improvement, but the real advantage the R5 will have there is the cfexpress cards vs sd uhs2. While the sony is sitting there flushing its buffer onto 300mb/s cards, the canon will be done already. Obviously that feature isn't useful for everyone, but for some, it certainly will be.
     
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  4. Deftone2k

    Deftone2k In the Darkroom

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    It's all good I love the discussion, but I will always make sure people remember (not saying that for you, but just in general). I even saw comments on that 'The King is Coming' post from someone at Canon saying how the IBIS is going to blow Sony out of the water because the way Sony mounts on lenses work and it's IBIS is flawed. I was like.. right so have you used a Sony? the IBIS works great.. if you can do extra stops etc then that is fine, but that does not mean the Sony IBIS doesnt work well (it does).

    I definitely think Digic processors had some issues but there are hardware factors that they gimped. I mean is that why they included a piss poor SD slot on the 5D3? (maybe it was...) or why they left a slot out on the original R though? I know it's a pretty specific scenario though but I am just not sold on some of the decision making for a long long time (especially when they had proved in the 1 series they could.

    It's like someone finally forced them to play their hand or pick it up. I mean those who need to shoot 1D line are still going to reach for it, but that was always the case. I just figure they never really trusted that...

    Unless the two brands are going to build out bodies that are nearly identical then it's all we do have for comparison (my first reply in this thread was still based off a rumours post at the time tho...) and on paper at the time that very simple 45mp, 12fps and IBIS is really not far off the A7R3 42.4mp, 10fps and IBIS. I know it's looking like a whole lot more (especially with video) but you know.. I really do hope the R5 is that bloody good.

    Yeah but literally that post from Canon is saying it can do it. So i'd like to hold them accountable to it :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2020
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    EvilGenius

    EvilGenius Member

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    That reply was mostly to the comment about image quality, because that's going to be a huge factor for a sensor in this MP range. Sony has had very good dynamic range out of their sensors and compared to canon, pretty decent high iso noise levels as well, so if the R5 is going to play with the big boys it's going to need to perform well in those areas. They are another thing that is heavily dependent on processing power though, so I think it's really going to come down to how much of the digic X processor canon is willing to let off the chain.

    I'm really curious what else Canon might have up their sleeves in the future too. Several of the rumours sites are convinced there's an 'R1' coming. Earlier someone commented that there was little to distinguish the R5 from a 1DX3 specs wise. Obviously build is a huge part of that, along with the 16 mechanical fps, but what else? You could build the R5 as a 1DX3, heavy, incredibly robust, practically cyclone proof, but what do you do to the specs to make it worthy of the 1 series moniker? Do you boost it to 16 mechanical fps as well, is 30 electronic fps a possibility? Would even the 'new' canon be willing to release a mirrorless 1 series camera that can embarrass the 1DX3 like that? I really wonder.

    It's already been suggested that the R6 will have the 20mp sensor from the 1DX3, presumably with the clean high iso noise performance that goes with it, and it's already suggested with about the same level of confidence that it will also do 12fps mechanical/20fps electronic, whilst being cheaper than the R5. I just can't figure how canon are going to divide their product line.

    I am though greatly amused by the suggestion (completely unverified) of an 'R3' with 150mp sensor. I have a portrait photographer mate that is drooling at the prospect. All I see is a lot of extra time required in photoshop to hide the otherwise invisible 'defects' in a models skin :p
     
  6. Xang

    Xang Member

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    What kind of features do you think it will have that set a new standard, other than the 8K video? I am genuinely asking, as Canon haven't alluded to anything else.

    Sports shooters do not want 40+ MP. They want a 1DX3 or an A9/A9ii.

    The R5 looks great, but I'm seriously confused at how people can think it's particularly interesting vs an R3 or R4 if you don't shoot ultra ultra ultra high res video.
     
  7. OP
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    EvilGenius

    EvilGenius Member

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    If it doesn't interest you then I guess it just doesn't, but if you put the specs of the R3 or 4 on a table beside canons, apart from the sensor resolution of the Sony, the canon comes out on top (of course IF all the listed specs are released and aren't somehow beaten with the almighty cripple hammer), and then throws 8k video on top, so.. new standard. I get the sense your'e chasing some sort of revolution that isn't video related, if that's what you want before anything can be called a new standard then there probably won't be one for you until the next new technology comes along that replaces mirrorless cameras.

    Professional sports shooters with healthy budgets shoot 1DX3's or A9ii's. The rest of us plebs use what we can afford. Try not to forget we aren't all rich. Hell I'm still worried about the price point this camera will be released at.
     
  8. Xang

    Xang Member

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    Which specs? Any one would do. I'm honestly not trying to be combative. Just objective.

    This is a discussion on brand new, high end cameras. Whether or not you can personally afford one has nothing to do with it.
     
  9. OP
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    EvilGenius

    EvilGenius Member

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    Ok, if you want to make it easy. 12fps vs 10. You can't even say it's not a significant difference, 2fps jumps have been how the 1D and Dx series from Canon and Nikon have progressed. And again, you don't get to ignore the 8k video because it isn't useful to you. The 5D2 was the classic camera it is because it was the first do it all DSLR for professionals.

    Sorry, but no, here you're wrong. the 5D series might be a 'pro' body, but it is not in the same league as the 1D series, and price is most certainly a factor. If I'm completely wrong about how they price this, and the rumours sites are wrong about an 'R1' in the future, fair enough, but I don't think so. So you can't throw up top tier cameras and compare them against a lower tier product because it's convenient.
     
  10. Xang

    Xang Member

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    You said it best here -

    An extra 2fps doesn't get me too excited. I'm sorry.

    There is no way the EOS R5 will cost less than an A7R4 ($5k) or an A9 ($4k). I'm only comparing cameras of similar pricing and positioning.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the R5 is even more than an A9ii ($6k) on release.
     
  11. OP
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    EvilGenius

    EvilGenius Member

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    That's fair enough, I have no qualms there. But your lack of interest doesn't change what it is.

    It *should* be comparible in cost to an A7R4, that's it's market segment. The price of the A9, being the previous generation sony flagship, not really relevant. I don't think it will more than an A9ii, but that will depend on how aggressive canon want to be.
     
  12. OP
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    EvilGenius

    EvilGenius Member

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    Another specs announcement on this camera. A few of the discussion points from this thread answered.

    Emphasis mine. No bloated mjpeg codec, H265... People will actually be able to record for more than a few mins in 8k without blowing through all their cards lol. Also IBIS will work in conjunction with EF lenses, another solid win right there.
     
  13. Derfman

    Derfman Member

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    Interesting to see if they lock or gimp IBIS with non EOS lenses...
     
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    EvilGenius

    EvilGenius Member

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    I think that will come down to how serious they are about growing this system. They're pushing hard to release their own RF lenses, but they must know they can't cover everything, and that a certain group of customers are going to want the genuine glass regardless.. If they realise that, then it makes no sense to put anything in place to block 3rd party glass, glass that will only help to make the system more accessible to more customers. If they don't... Well I guess we'll see. I know one thing is certain, the native glass range at the moment is heavily weighted towards the expensive end of the line, so some cheaper 3rd party glass will certainly help adoption for the more budget focused buyer (read: Poor bastards like me).
     
  15. Xang

    Xang Member

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    As long as it doesn't melt to pieces.
     
  16. holdennutta

    holdennutta Member

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    Has anyone other than Sony actually had heat based recording stoppages?
     
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    EvilGenius

    EvilGenius Member

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    It is an interesting point, 8k processed to h265 takes some serious processing power, and that means heat. I might well be jumping the gun saying things like 'record longer than a few mins'. Canon haven't said anything about recording times yet. And if they manage the heat dissipation well, what will it mean for battery life?
     
  18. holdennutta

    holdennutta Member

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    If a phone can do 4k 60 h265 (albeit lower bitrate) with no cooling in something 5% the internal volume of a pro bodied mirrorless camera I'm sure a camera can manage it.
     
  19. Deftone2k

    Deftone2k In the Darkroom

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    Sensor size is tiny in comparison.
     
  20. holdennutta

    holdennutta Member

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    Yeah, for sure. But look at the performance of something like the most recent Apple's SoCs (as an example. Apple aren't the only ones who can make a stonking fast ARM chip). Throw one of them in a camera and I would put money on them being sufficient.
     

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