Cause of Homosexuality (evolutionary) (not derogatory)

Discussion in 'Science' started by Madengineer, Jul 10, 2015.

  1. chainbolt

    chainbolt Member

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    Well, I doubt there is "a" trigger. The development of homosexuality by the individuals we interviewed showed such a broad "variety" that I think, if there is a genetic predisposition, it's in most cases slowly developing in interaction with various small triggers provided by the environment, and not something that is caused by a single trigger, like an "event". I think it's more a slow process that for most of them takes place during and shortly after puberty. I say for "most", because some people reported that they already before puberty (!) felt attracted to their own gender, and we had cases where people reported that they developed such feelings in the second half of their life, even when married and having kids. I can imagine what causes it, but I am almost 100% sure that the sexual attraction to the same gender isn't caused by a single factor.

    I think nobody can say what is "dominant". These days people tend to attribute everything to gens. I doubt thought this is the right way to look at sexual orientation, or other such habits that we know can run through families. And I agree, sexual orientation is for sure fluid, it can change during life, and many people are anyway bisexual.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2015
  2. Foliage

    Foliage Member

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    You make a good point.
     
  3. RobRoySyd

    RobRoySyd Member

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    Seems to me that for some people it is. For others it seems very much hardwired. To begin to answer the question of "cause of homosexuality" I think we would first need to have a system of classification for homosexuality. As CB has noted there does seem to be "early onset" and "late onset". We could find for environmental problems to dominate there still needs to be a certain genome or several variants.

    We are discussing both the human genome which is a very complex and the human mind which is as complex.
     
  4. gobbledegook

    gobbledegook Member

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  5. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Well said. As usual, discussion of this topic always seems to be very black and white when in reality it's a sea of grey.

    The best definition of sexuality I ever ready was by my "Philosphy and Sexuality" lecturer. She had a 3-point model of autosexuality, homosexuality and heterosexuality, and suggested that people float around in there, with a nearly infinite level of variability on all three axes.

    When you stop thinking about "gay vs straight", and start thinking about more fluid models, you realise that seaching for various causes for a two-extreme system is rather pointless when we can't even define such things so simply.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
  6. chainbolt

    chainbolt Member

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    From the article:

    This is exactly what I have been arguing in this thread.

    A genetic predisposition is likely, but it is not the sole cause that makes somebody manifest homosexual by feeling or sexual behavior. And also as I have said, this goes for many other traits as well. Intelligence is for sure one of them.
     
  7. RobRoySyd

    RobRoySyd Member

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    Correct, there are varying degrees and that relates well to this involving more than one specific gene. From just a couple of genes we get a lot of possible combinations.
    My position is that from all the possible combinations there could be some that produce a male who is hard wired to be completely female averse and other combinations that give a male who is completely male averse. For them no amount of nurture or environment is going to change their orientation. I've certainly known at least one homosexual who was quite demonstrable when it came to his revulsion to the very thought of mating with a female and there does seem plenty of heterosexual males who have the same response to mating with a male. Beyond those classes there certainly is a percentage who fall into the grey area.

    We are after all intelligent , sentient and the evolution of sexual reproduction and a brain capable of sentience requires pleasure seeking. We also choose mates based on more than sexual attraction. We generally have a desire for long term relationships, a social species requires such traits.

    Intellectual disability has a very strong genetic factor. The campaign for the rights of the intellectually disabled, especially those with Down's Syndrome, was even longer and harder fought than for homosexuals. It's only been within the past decades that these people have any rights at all.
    The science of Down's Syndrome is a good exemplar of how complex human reproduction is:
    Genetics of Down syndrome
     
  8. chainbolt

    chainbolt Member

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    Well, I heard this already 40 years ago, and every psychologist would explain it in a similar way. I tried to do so at the beginning of the thread.

    On the other hand, it's somehow understandable that many people believe there is one single factor for homosexuality, and reduce sexual orientation to a 2-dimensional model, of either heterosexual or homosexual.

    At the end what practically counts for society is acceptance of diversity and variety.
     
  9. peg

    peg Member

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    Comparing gays to downies.

    Thread is going well.
     
  10. chainbolt

    chainbolt Member

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    He is not comparing "gays to downies", he is comparing "the campaign for the rights" of these minority groups. :thumbup:
     
  11. peg

    peg Member

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    You're looking sex for the purpose of reproduction, when in fact most sex among humans is performed for pleasure, or stress relief or exercise or simply because we need it.

    Looking at sex as just a mean to reproduction is basically thinking inside a tiny little box.
     
  12. chainbolt

    chainbolt Member

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    Very true of course :D. But the subject of discussion here is homosexuality and evolution. And from an evolutionary point of view the only relevant point when it comes to sex is reproduction.
     
  13. Foliage

    Foliage Member

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    Pretty sure the overwhelming reason for sex is reproduction especially in this discussion. Hardly a tiny little box lol.
     
  14. chainbolt

    chainbolt Member

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    Exactly.

    And because of this, it is likely that not only evolutionary pressure via genetic selection is the "reason" for homosexuality. Because evolution would have made such an unproductive trait extinct pretty soon. :leet:
     
  15. Diamond dude

    Diamond dude Member

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    Before anyone can isolate a cause or causes of homosexuality, it's necessary to first define homosexuality.

    From an engineers point of view, the percentage of genuinely homosexual individuals looks to be a quite small subset of the total who define themselves as 'gay'.

    To be genuinely 'homosexual', by definition, is to be sexually and emotionally attracted to people of the same gender, and not the opposite gender.

    Today's definition of 'gay' currently extends to transgender, transsexual, bi-sexual, etc.

    It's the will of society to define sexuality in binary terms, but clearly the issue is far more complex.

    The very fact that we see defined male / female gender role-play in many gay couples is evidence that the issue is far from binary, and that many people who define themselves as 'gay' are in fact not gay at all.
     
  16. RobRoySyd

    RobRoySyd Member

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    Not so at all.
    I learned the basics of genetics by breeding fruit flies. They have a recessive gene that causes vestigial wings i.e. a fly that cannot fly. So one in four cannot fly and will not prosper. Two out of four carry that gene and the remaining 1 out of four doesn't.
    For a gene to be so simplistically selected against it would have to be dominant.
    That's just Mendellian genetics, human traits aren't that simple.

    The gene responsible for human haemophilia survives within the human population, some are born with the condition, most not.
     
  17. Foliage

    Foliage Member

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    I remember learning that in biology but had since forgotten it, good example.
     
  18. peg

    peg Member

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    From a Darwinian standpoint, I think there's at least a few logical explanations, but like I wrote before that's thinking inside a small box.
     
  19. chainbolt

    chainbolt Member

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    Interesting example, but I think it's not comparable. The lack of flying capability is a disadvantage, but homosexuality would directly impact reproduction. That's a much, much stronger selection criteria, if you assume that manifest homosexuality is purely genetically determined. Even if transferred as recessive gene, it would have very little chance to survive.

    But anyway, I think nobody has denied that homoscxuality might have a genetic basis. For a long time already research with identical twins is suggesting that it has. But this research is also suggesting that it is not a given. Manifest homosexualty is "behavior". And such behavior is likely resulting from a given genetic predisposition with interactions in your social environment. That most likely takes place in the early time period when an individual's personality is formed. With other words, even if you have such genetic predisposition (which might even exist in varying degrees) you may not develop homosexual feelings at all.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2015
  20. RobRoySyd

    RobRoySyd Member

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    Lack of flying ability in the wild is fatal. Recessive genes are not selected against.

    http://anthro.palomar.edu/synthetic/synth_4.htm

    This as far as I know science does not disagree with however this notion that it cannot be genetic because natural selection would have rid our species of the "gene" is wrong. It's a notion that I'm somewhat alarmed still exists.

    I would see "manifest" homosexuality as being very much genetic and very little nurture. The not so manifest cases could range from just a predisposition to purely nurture.

    We've only recently discovered the Alzheimer's Gene. If you've got it then you'll have the condition but it's very manifest i.e. it starts earlier and is aggressive. If you don't have that "gene" though you're not immune to developing Alzheimer's. If you do though it's usually later in life and not so aggressive.
     

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