Concerns about Data Retention, Surveillance and Privacy

Discussion in 'Networking, Telephony & Internet' started by Agg, Jul 18, 2012.

  1. IACSecurity

    IACSecurity Member

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    Your inability to read and comprehend may give you that impression. It may also provide you with an incorrect impression of the proposed bill, hence why your arguments against it are completely flawed and subsequently ineffectual.

    You would only be belittled by my posts if you know them to be correct...


    Lets make this simple.

    I dont like the bill. I have written a detailed accurate letter (paper, like the real shit) to the various political entities I should. I have directly referenced and countered a great number of points within that bill. I do this from an educated and informed position.

    I dont like people arguing against the bill with crap. Why? Because it means people with half a clue don't get heard. Thus the bill gets past.

    How I act on this forum to people who clearly care so little about it as to even read it.. well CBF, and if you feel belittled because you choose to argue about something you havent even read, well so you should. One would think/HOPE that if you were so pashionit about defeating it, you would at least read it and try and find holes in it.....??

    If I get banned again for calling a spade a spade... well maybe the mod should get a clue too.
     
  2. damn duck

    damn duck Member

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    Your hostility is amusing.
     
  3. cvidler

    cvidler Member

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    maybe so. but he's dead right.

    So many laws good/bad/otherwise get passed because there's no serious informed debate.
     
  4. meremortal

    meremortal Member

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    Can you please post this here with whatever edits you deem appropriate?
     
  5. alisport

    alisport Member

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    im totally against it aswell and as much as i hate to say it IAC is spot on

    the argument needs to be worthy not just "ahhh thats not australian cmon"

    real concerns outlining the possiblities of mis use and abuse are definately high on the list for many

    they are abused already prior to this subject of this bills introduction in the sense of playing the game where they always cheat so you will never know if there means were legal to start with and where their insight came from to pursue.

    privacy is gone and so is freedom and we are the ones given it to them
     
  6. broccoli

    broccoli Member

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    And way more easily countered by rhetoric. Scores of your average mums and dads howling with rage in the street (even if IAC thinks that what they are raging about isn't acceptable) would be more likely to kill this shit than a few well-reasoned responses to the bill. The former means loss of votes, the latter means a few glib replies as to how those concerns have been "addressed" and how everything can be proceeded with without anybody needing to be concerned.
     
  7. Sunder

    Sunder Member

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    Have been watching this thread through notifications, even though not really contributing. The thread has had both it's amusing and frustrating bits. I know my personality is always to lean towards community good, even at some personal expense. In the Mass Effect series, I play Paragon. In Dungeons and Dragons, I always played Lawful Good. In real life, I work almost weekly with law enforcement.

    I know my arguments will not convince many here, but if I can cause a few to pause and think, maybe it's worth my while to type it. Imagine a scenario like this:

    October 2012:
    Public: We don't want no stinking data retention laws!!!
    Parliament: Okay, the public don't want no stinking data retention laws. Laws not passed
    Police: Damn, our job just got harder

    November 2012:
    *New credit card fraud ring sets up in Australia*

    December 2012:
    Public: Help, my credit card has been compromised do something!

    January 2013:
    Police: Okay, we've tracked it down to the IP, but because the data wasn't retained by the ISP, we couldn't actually get the guys.
    Public: Damn useless public servants! What do we pay you for?!

    To the public - to many of the objectors - the two events are separate. Event one is about you. You don't want your privacy infringed - as minimal as that infringement is. The second event is about them. Their total incapacity to be competent and do their job, no thought that you objected to giving them the resources to do their job.

    Sure, we can take this to dystopian extremes. When big brother is watching you, nobody commits any crime. But we're not talking about putting a camera in every TV, and forcing every person to exercise. We're not even talking about any new surveillance. We're talking about data that is already retained, and that police can already get, but forcing the originators of that data to retain it for a longer period
     
  8. alisport

    alisport Member

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    sorry but that is a load of shit!

    credit card fraud is your example?

    your job is already too easy, and your powers are already too much besdies the fact you all now exercise ZERO tolerance on all citizens and most of the time its the good guy/lady who cops it while the smart ass habitual offender or junkie gets a longer leash and a slightly harder slap on his wrist

    privacy is not any of the law inforcements business

    its your job to find/hunt down and then get through legal means a warrant to pursue them and ultimately catch/ detain them and process

    but is this at the price of the majority of the country who are good ppl (how many cops do i know who are no better than the average drinker, smoker, drug user, occassional drive offender (over speed/camera offences etc) mobile fone user whilst driving....? they do the same damned thing you lazy bunch of pricks go do soem real work and stop asking for easier more prying ways to cheat your way through and abuse not only us tax payers but the system we reluctantly support
     
  9. broccoli

    broccoli Member

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    So , how did you "track it down"?
     
  10. Sunder

    Sunder Member

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    This is EXACTLY the type of attitude I'm talking about. "Mine Olympic Dam for us. Here's a teaspoon... No! You can't have a table spoon, your resources are already excessive! Get to it!"

    You know, if the was passed then, police would "hunt them down and then get a through legal means a warrant (to obtain retained data) then pursue them and ultimately catch them." so you're in full support of the laws? great! I'm more persuasive than I thought! Seriously, a warrant to obtain information is useless unless the originator of that information is obliged to retain it.

    @brocoli. Say you bust a ring, get the server. You have a list of IPs from the server log, many of them Australian. To find the person, you need a record from the ISP, who owned the IP at the time of the offence. To get a conviction you would then need say, ISP web proxy logs to show that user accessed certain urls ok that server.

    Right now, catch them fast enough, and you got a conviction, but more than 3 months, and it's a little hit and miss. If the new laws pass, they'll have up to 2 years to catch them. It's pretty much the only things that change. It doexn't become a warrantless search.

    For the record' I'm not law enforcement. I'm corporate security that works with police regularly, and I see the amazing job they do with the limited resources they're given. I personally know several officers who go home and keep working without overtime, because they're that dedicated to breaking crime rings.
     
  11. broccoli

    broccoli Member

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    So, you apply for the records relating to those IPs to be retained by the ISP.
     
  12. Sunder

    Sunder Member

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    Correct. Right now, it's completely up to the ISP how long they retain it for. Some will keep it operationally (Usually just a few weeks), while others retain them for quite a number of years.

    The primary change in the law, is to make ISPs consistent in how long they keep their records for: That is, at least 2 years.

    Let's be real here, there's a very good chance that your ISP is already compliant with the proposed laws, and you wouldn't have a clue whether they are or not.
     
  13. broccoli

    broccoli Member

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    No, it's not. You can apply for evidence to be retained. When you've got a valid reason.
     
  14. Sunder

    Sunder Member

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    ...
    ...
    ...

    <Speechless>

    If it's already deleted, how can you ask for it to be retained?

    You're thinking "I know the criminal, order the ISP to retain data on this person for the NEXT time he commits a crime". I'm talking about "We know he committed a crime already, ISP, can you please provide me your logs from 12 months ago, so we can prove it to a court".
     
  15. broccoli

    broccoli Member

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    Then you've already got evidence.....
     
  16. Sunder

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    You're way, way out of your league kid.

    How are you going to prosecute 144.27.97.157 for going to a known C&C server, say 203.47.95.227? Send an IP address to jail? No, you need the ISP's records of which account holder had that IP address on the date the crime was committed.

    And if the defendant then says "203.47.95.227? Well if I went there, then it must have been my infected computer depositing my keystroke logger information there. I'm the victim!"

    Unless the ISP log shows the IP address going to 203.47.95.227/admin.php and 203.47.95.227/get_stored_records.php, where as every other victim was visiting 203.47.95.227/upload_keystroke_logs.php. So the crown prosecutor needs the ISP logs as well.

    This is the problem. People who do not understand investigative techniques, people who do not understand prosecution processes, people who do not understand proposed changes to law, feel qualified to protest against something which is not even on the table. A few people have got it right on this forum. If parliament sees 100,000 protests saying "We don't want a warrantless data retention law!", which drowns out the real protests, then they will say "Oh, okay, well, our proposed laws do have a requirement to obtain a warrant, and there's not many other protests, all good to go!" Looks like the police's requests will get through after all.
     
  17. broccoli

    broccoli Member

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    :lol:

    Sure. Whatever you say.

    :lol:
     
  18. 35k

    35k Member

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  19. coderx

    coderx Member

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    .

    Hows about something along the lines of the attacker using a VPN / TOR, (cause most if not all do (unless they are using LOIC in which case they will be caught anyway and are just script kiddies )).

    This proposal does nothing to stop attacks or credit card fraud, because those people know what they are doing and already make themselves very hard to track.

    And nothing you've said addresses the issue of trapwire (formerly echelon), this is a full range surveillance system, biometric scanning, social network search capable (private messages / emails / posts / chat logs), and linked to a global datamining system, it can be a matter of minutes once your face is seen by one of the cameras before anyone behind the controls can have all your personal information at their fingertips.

    This is in effect in this country, there is a center in canberra run by the military. (I know people who are involved but cannot for their own protection come forward (they will go to jail / court marshall).

    The vote in parliment was not a vote to use or not to use the system, it was a vote to answer the question "Are we using these systems in Australia", the vote returned a "NO, we will not answer the question" - which really says yes they are using it, why would you want to 'not answer' a question like that where the result of a "no" would be happy citizens.

    The rabid responses from some here are amazing, name calling and so on, I do notice that those posters saying things like "such and such needs to learn to read" offer absolutely nothing to back their statements, instead all they are posing are "you're an idiot, you can't read" and so on, well if you know so much then by all means enlighten us.

    Trapwire needs to stop, it IS the orwellian 'big brother', it IS here, and IS being used to invade everyones privacy.

    a couple quotes which are very valid in this case :

    "Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither." - Benjamin Franklin.

    "When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2012
  20. IACSecurity

    IACSecurity Member

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    Can you summaries your suggestions or questions into 1 line dot points?
    Can you also summarise how what you are saying directly relates to the proposed bill?

    Unfortunatley I am too stupid to understand what your trying to say.


    <insert some random quote from some random guy>
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012

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