Discussion in 'Business & Enterprise Computing' started by elvis, Jul 1, 2008.
Absolutely not. The client has this explicitly outlined in their engagement contract.
Why?, and how long after you quit, can you start working for a client?, and what sweetner is offered to staff to sign these rights away?
That's why the company needs to pay to enforce the clause, otherwise the courts will let the other party sue for loss of income. The precedent set is that the individual's rights trump the company's re: income loss.
Been that way for about 4 years.
Unless you pay someone gardening leave you cannot stop them from competing for the business, non compete clauses have been beaten time and time again in courtroom, unless you are prepared to financially compensate someone, unless they are a principle whom you brought the business from then it is a condition of the sale and the sale is compensation not to compete. A previous employer in the 90s tried that one on when I moved to a different company in the same space as their business, cost them quite a bit to learn that without financial compensation they can't do shit.
The client (i.e the MSP's client) can't hire them. It breaches the managed service agreement - has nothing to do with the employee. They can sever with us with no fault within 3 months tho.
I was threatened legally. If I simply believed the wording in my contract (which i didn't - and like many here ignored during signing) I was unable to work within 160km radius (this included Sydney and Canberra) for 6 months and within 60km (both major pop centres) for 2 years - and I had no reason to doubt the former employer would take it to court. I was told it would cost me $40k to fight it in court and go beyond just throwing letters with letterheads from Macquarie St on them. As i said, it was by the grace of the wording of my contract that there was no way to write the clause down by striking words - to which my legal advice outlined in the letter.
I *strongly* recommend to anyone with 6 figures in their paycheck to have a lawyer vet their contract. Last 2 I've had entire clauses removed that we didn't like for no penalty in salary. The $400 it costs (or less) is worth it.
That's different though, that's the client service contract.
In general, a consultant couldn't leave their company, start their own business and undercut/replace their previous employer at the client the next day - UNLESS it was a very specialised skill (precedent puts individual ahead of organisation). But they could certainly have their consultancy running alongside their previous employer.
Clients should not lure consultants away... But if they do, they're liable for the costs. And some big companies will happily pay any fines. If their project is a big phased one, it's unlikely/unwise for the previous employer to rock the boat. Have had it happen in previous workplaces.
Yeah although restraint on trade clauses are not enforceable, there is a cost for fighting which the company can usually bear more than you. Also, the penalty clause for poaching in the client contract is fairly standard I thought - I've been approached before client-side but the idea died in the arse when the client found that there was a pretty hefty poaching fee (it was > a couple of years salary or something).
Having said that, moving from provider to client IS fairly standard if done above board - keeps the client happy, gets an inside man in position - as long as its done with the appropriate handshakes all round. Then the provider chooses not to enforce any clauses I suppose. Heck where I am even moving to vendor is usually done after a hefty amount of signalling - nobody does anything to rock the boat when you're doing multi-million dollars of turnover per annum.
Whats the Benefit to you (The MSP)? If I wanted to poach one of your guys, Then I'm giving my 3 Month notice to sever, and 3 months and 1 day later, you've lost a client, and a staff member?
it has nothing to do about benefit and everything to do with managing resources and ensuring that everyone we employ has a job to do. If a reasonable size client bails instantly - we probably have to let people go. Believe it or not, we don't like doing that.
I would have thought that the MSP would have to be doing a pretty shit job for a business to both hire an employee plus sever ties with the MSP under contract. I can see some smaller businesses attempting to poach frontline service staff with the expectation that a new internal resource would result in them no longer needing the services of the MSP, but I'm sure that's a myopic position to take.
Sorry re: not responding the other day, folks. I had to take a few days away just to get my feet back on the ground. On Christmas Eve, I was very unwell and didn't sleep. On Christmas night, the laptop which I bought off Gumtree for $950 including spare parts that are useless to me because they are for an older generation, shit the bed. I have no fucking idea why. I often had it sitting on the bed, just watching youtube, to fall asleep, as I often do. I woke up on Boxing Day, it was dead. No signs of life. I pulled the battery, the 4G card, the wifi card, the RAM, the SSD, I traced out the power button PCB and tried poking it on the mobo, nothing, absolutely no signs of life whatsoever. The thing is *dead*. That I paid $950 for a week ago, with no warranty, that I didn't realize till today, I could've bought the fucker *new* for $1100. The day I wake up after Christmas, my boss rages at me for buying a bluetooth pen because I broke the one that came with the tablet, and I lose my job. Dead laptop, no job, on boxing day. And people wonder why I hate Christmas.
The other issues I'm not telling you about? It's taking me a while to get used to a geriatric ticketing system, I've only had to get used to, I dunno, three different ticketing systems this year. My Chrome Work account has remnants from old jobs in it, all of which I have lost this year, due to health problems that I have been working so hard to overcome, and am starting to do so, and I get canned for buying a pen and being late with my tickets, which I all have written down in my own notekeeping apps and to myself on Slack anyway.
I'm losing the plot here. Literally! The only thing that keeps me sane, is a job. I've just applied for a Digital Pacific job with a cover letter written specifically for them that I will probably never hear from again. I am willing to uproot my life for a stable job. Yeah, I've fucked up a lot of times, falling asleep twice, and buying a pen. I've learned each time. I understand now why buying the pen was a bad idea, but there is one common thread in all this bullshit. No one really ever gives me a second chance. No one gives me the slightest hint of benefit of the doubt, it's just one mistake and you're gone. I'll be honest, I'm fucking scared. I'm losing my mind, i can't keep a job, and I am pissing everybody off by bitching about it. I'm being called the new Mitch, someone's probably calling me the new luke212 as well, fucked if I know. I *know* I have a lot to learn, I *know* I have liabilities that need to be ironed out, and I am working on just that. But all I want is a job, any job, anywhere. If I had my open licence for a year by now, I wouldn't be bitching. I would have given the middle finger to IT and everyone in it, and done Uber and gone to uni instead. But I can't do that for at least another couple years, because in Retardistan (aka Queensland), you have to be on your opens for a year to do *anything*, deliver Chinese food or Chinese people, it doesn't matter if your cargo is worth $17.50 or someone's life, the laws are the same here, in that, I pretty much *literally* have to have a taxi license to deliver Chinese takeaweay in a car. I can't do Uber, I can't do Uber Eats, I can't do anything related to my car, unless it's simply just driving to and from the actual job (i.e. remote IT work).
I think I need a personal journal or something. I need to stop pissing everyone off with my constant rants, and believe me, I am not holding back here. I have so much shit hanging over my head that it's breaking me, and I am not even 25 yet. All I want is a job that I am competently qualified to do, and hold that job for more than a month, and at the very least be given a chance to just ease into it for a couple of months. I always try to do my best, but I have had so many failures in the IT industry that I don't bother listing them anymore. I don't bother with references because the references probably won't remember me by the time a real job happens, if it ever does.
I am passionate about what I do. I love learning. I am doing a pirate RHCSA right now, and that's really fucking hard to do in my current mental state when my current mental state, explaining it to most health professionals would have me in the loony bin. This passion is wearing thin, and wearing thin at a rapid rate. I am burning out and I haven't even got my foot in the door of this fucking industry yet. Surely it cannot be this hard. Surely it is just a case of me being too retarded to hold down a white collar job, and I need to swap the keyboard for a pair of multigrips and start bashing shit pipes instead of internet pipes.
I am falling apart. I am 24 years old. I don't even know why I should continue doing this anymore. It's killing me and pissing everyone else around me off. I haven't even told my family I lost my job yet, that was 4 days ago. I am scrambling to try and find something, anything, in a reasonable amount of time and just say I switched because the pay was better than $20/hr 20 hours a week. I could not look my family in the eyes and say that I have done 3 for 3 in holding jobs for less than 2 months in less than 1 year. I am ashamed of myself. I disgust myself with my uselessness. All I want to do is work and save money, that's all I want to do. Doing something I'm actually good at and enjoy is a bonus at this point.
I am so tired of this shit. All I want to do is work. All I want to do is work. All I want to do is work. I am so fucking sick of saying that.
Just clean your room, get a job and watch some Jordan Peterson.
And no. Not your Dream Job. No-one starts at their dream job - you might get to your dream job once in your life, most people don't. Any job.
Work hard and move to the next one. But don't leave the current one till you have a contract from the next one.
It's difficult to know where to start, honestly. Lets cherrypick a few things:
You're young in today's world. You're also fairly inexperienced professionally it seems. You need to stop aiming for the moon and take small steps like NSanity says. Get a job you know you can do, then do it. Stop trying to go above and beyond. Sit down, shut up, and do what you're told. Once you're established and start getting an idea of the expectations on you as a professional, THEN you can start to branch out.
The world doesn't owe you anything, and that includes second chances. Think about what you bring to a job from the employers perspective. Most employers in my experience appreciate reliability and consistency. You don't seem to be either of those, except that you consistently return here and complain that you've failed again. Perhaps a journal would be better for you. Ask yourself, what do you bring to the organisation? How can you contribute to its success? Being able to perform basic tasks reliably and consistently with minimal supervision is absolutely what entry level positions are about.
if you're struggling to manage a ticketing system, perhaps you don't belong in IT. Harsh truth. Ticketing system is one of the most basic tools you'll be using, every day (if you're in support roles). If you struggle to pick up new systems like this that are so intrinsic to the role, that's worthy of review. More generally too, if you are slow to pick up new things, generalist support may not be suitable for you. Business needs change and you will need to pick up new applications faster than those people you are supporting.
Perhaps I've misunderstood, but if you're subverting the ticket system because you're writing them in your own apps and in Slack instead of logging them properly, stop. People who do their own thing because "oh [LOB app] is too difficult" or "it's easier this way" are not good employees. The business does things for a reason. If you don't like it, that's tough. You can petition for change but as an entry level employee in an established business, that's really just screaming "I am not a good fit for your business" and/or "I am not a team player". If there are genuinely ways to improve the way the business does things, fine. You can bring them up with your manager. But follow the process that is in place until such time as it's changed.
Finally, these two groups of people (family/mental health processionals) are infinitely better support groups for you than OCAU. While you might get industry specific advice here, it seems more like you and your personal situation is the biggest barrier for you, and we are not the right people to sort your shit out. Tell your family. Rely on them to support you while you get your head in the right place. And if you aren't already, get on a mental health plan (via your GP). If explaining it to them means that they suggest a temporary supervised living arrangement to assess your situation (aka "loony bin"), do that. Embrace whatever options are suggested to you to get back on the right track, document your progress in your journal, talk with your family and with your GP and whomever else your GP recommends.
No offense but you are your problem, get a job any job and improve your skillsets, all of them including turning up on time, doing whatever task you are given in a timeframe defined, complete task to satisfaction of desired outcome, just to name a few.
PS - Excuses are like assholes, everyone has one. I know many high functioning motivated smart people with sleep apnea, they modify their life to adopt to the situation.
GET PROFESSIONAL HELP, go see a psychologist.
trackhappy, there's a saying that persistent bad luck is generally the result of persistent bad decisions.
you bought a laptop to BYO because you say the work issued one was a POS. taking that one at face value, why would you buy a used laptop for $950 when you could have had it new for $1100? that's a bad purchasing decision. you get zero warranty on a piece of equipment that your job apparently depends on you having, what would have happened if it died a month into the job and left you unable to work? how do your think your boss would have reacted? that's the sort of consideration that goes into making a good decision.
it was a bad idea to even supply your own gear in the first place unless the job specified you had to do so. if what they supplied was inadequate, say so reasonably. "unusable in Windows 10" sounds like crap to me, it's a business device not your personal gaming speed demon, and complaining about lack of USB3 ports is rubbish - do you need them to do the job? no battery is a more realistic issue, if you need to be able to move the machine around without waiting for shutdown/restart, say so and demonstrate how it's an impediment to productivity. or what about just putting it into sleep mode if you don't need to move it much? I have to do that now with my work laptop because HP did you ever need to do work with it in a rack or anything like that where you needed battery capability? or was it purely a desktop replacement, you don't actually need a battery?
and did you consider that maybe they gave you the old office spare while they waited to see how you worked out for a few weeks? nobody buys a new apprentice a full set of brand new tools on day one, you make sure they're worth the investment first.
from a private purchase you probably won't have a proper receipt that you can use to justify a work related tax expense claim later. if $950 is what you could afford, pick something in that price range. right now for that Harvey Norman have about 6 machines that are better than the equivalent of my 3 year old work laptop, which runs bloatware like AutoCAD fine. you don't need anything more than that for basic support work, and HN would have to be about the worst-case example I could look at for value.
complaining about a ticketing system is rubbish, sorry. I have no doubt it requires you to learn something new, but if a ticketing system is the impediment to completing work in a timely manner, ask for help. before it's a problem. nobody reasonable will go mad at you for asking, unless it's something you should already know, either because you've been given the information before, or you said you already knew it on a resume. nobody else in the industry was born just knowing stuff either, but at the same time you are aspiring to a role that involved a degree of complex fault finding and logical analysis - if a ticketing system is genuinely bringing you to a standstill then you're looking at the wrong industry.
stop focusing on your licence. it's self destructive to obsess over something you cannot change, and the reality is that laws are there because experience has taught lawmakers that people make poor choices on their own - poor decisions again. every single person out there has to sit through the same limitation for the same reasons, and every single person out there would find their life easier if the rules didn't apply to them too.
you are setting your goals way too high, and pretty much guaranteeing yourself a disappointment every time by doing so. your immediate goals need to be getting an entry level position that befits your current lack of documented experience, and keep your head down and work productively within the rules and processes of the business. that's how you demonstrate your worth and value to the business. people who need constant supervision, intervention and management are demonstrating why they are a liability, and with 50 people lined up to take your entry level position, the business is not going to invest a lot of time in you. it's very much up to you to get with the vibe of the place.
and if you think christmas sucks, my stepson spent 23 hours of his locked in a 9 square metre cell (where he's going to be for a while yet) due to... poor decisions.
sincerely - please stop sabotaging yourself by doing the same. I am increasingly of the opinion that the professional help is a good idea, to help provide some guidance and direction.
Don't confuse doing a trade with giving up or having to apply yourself any less. A lot of the advice that you have been given so far is would be the same if we swapped every instance of "IT" with "plumbing/electrical/mechanical"
I'm not gonna argue with any of your points, because all of your points are spot on perfect. Some of them may not be the easiest thing for me to swallow, but their directness is actually well appreciated.
Every time I come back to this forum I have a lump in the back of my throat because of how much bitching I've done and how much contribution I've not done. But actually reading your points, advice, and criticisms, this is probably career advice many upstanding folk would pay for. So please don't assume that I am not taking any of all of it to heart, I am taking it all on board, even if it takes me a little bit of time to crunch the numbers in the background and really understand what is being said.
You're right in that I'm setting my goals too high. They're too lofty. I want to work in a NOC. Failing that, I want to be a train driver. I want to rent a high-rise apartment, etc, etc. But I concede that I have not been setting my sights to where they really should be, and I suppose as a result of this I've been putting all that energy into something that is just not going to happen at this stage, and while that's perfectly ok, that's what's really been grinding at me, and that's what's been seriously wearing me out and making me a case of "burnt out before I've even started".
A YouTuber of all things once said "it's ok to have your head in the clouds, as long as your feet are on the ground", this is something I have been trying to adhere to, albeit I've had limited success in doing so, one could say at the very least. I have lofty goals and ambitions, but I know where I need to start. I need to start at the helpdesk. Maybe a junior sysadmin role, that'd be the best case scenario and probably the best fit for me. But even if I had a helpdesk job, I could use that spare time to fill in the gaps of my knowledge, get my pieces of paper. But here's the question though; how do I rejig my resume to better suit helpdesk, entry level positions? I've been told in interviews that I'm not great at talking to people, and I honestly don't think that's the case. Those instances where I'm in the interview room at a big arse conference table with me at one and and two discerning people at the other end, I hate that. It drives my nerves through the roof, I can't handle job interviews. I'm getting better at them, but I still hate them. It's been suggested that I have mock interviews with a friend and while this is a great idea, I simply haven't gotten around to it yet.
At the moment, all I want, is a job, somewhere in IT, or somewhere in the railways, those are the two things I am passionate about. Most of my knowledge is based in IT, though, so it's the natural path to follow, to me. I honestly don't think I want all that much. I just want to get my foot in the door, my arse at a desk, and that's it. I'll take a helpdesk job tonight, if it were offered to me. But I don't really know how to say I'm a people person in that regard, on my resume. A resume which needs to be professionally rewritten, anyway, which is something I will be looking into in the very new year.
The points about the laptop and taking time to get used to the ticketing software are valid, i didn't really take the time to do that, there were so many systems I had to get used to, as with any job, but in a couple of weeks that's all cemented in. I never really got that far. The laptop, yeah, it was fit for purpose, with a battery, but I wanted a BYOD device that I enjoy using and isn't a huge thing to lug around. Now I've got a $900 brick that needs replacing again. If I had have known I could have gotten them new, of course I would have done that. I bought mine off Gumtree out of sheer ignorance. I'll never be doing that again. The only laptops that have ever been good to me, have been new ones. The MacBook Pro I use as my daily driver is the one exception, it's been very good to me for a good number of years. Touch wood, when I'm working again, it'll be replaced with a Mac Pro, if they ever release a new one. More lofty goals and ambitions, but first, I need my bum in a chair.
So, what should I do? I basically want to start back at square one, and get into some form of IT job as quickly as possible, so how do I achieve that? Rewriting my resume is one thing I will be doing in very short order, next thing is just jumping back on the Seek bandwagon I guess, getting back to Sarina Russo and seeing if I can get some help there. I need a *lot* of mental health help, which I will be seeking in the very new year as well, all of these things possibly happing within this week.
Back at square one, how do I get into a helpdesk job as quickly as possible? That's currently my only goal. Helpdesk, as quickly as possible. What steps do I need to take to ensure that happens, literally as quickly as possible? Hell I'm more than happy to muck around in a computer shop if any are desperately in need of staff who can use a screwdriver around electronics. I'd be more than happy doing that.
Any possibility of going back and being a student for a couple years, Rory?
You talk about going back to square one, and frankly studenthood would give you a chance to fulfil a lot of your needs in a less threatening and unforgiving environment, while skilling you up for where you want to end up.
And leaving you some free time to work on any other personal issues in the meantime.
Because I'm not sure that working on those personal issues and working full time for an employer simultaneously is working that well. Is it now? It might be time to take a step back from butting your head against that wall, and take a significantly different and smarter approach.
Planned, and executed over time.
Not this ad hoc approach that is not working.
While being in a bit of a rut many moons ago; I spent the summer running dripper line through vineyards for 3 months, it was ~$14.40/hr in 38+ deg heat out in the sun. It was hard fucking work, it was shit work, but the people I was working with made it quite pleasant. Basically I was getting paid to spend 8+hrs a day contemplating my life, what I wanted to do, and how I was going to get there.
I moved up and through a few different jobs from there, each was another to put on my resume.
edit: fuck, the social aspect alone is worth it man.
I started off doing night fill @ kmart earning....... $13.30 an hour. After many years of hard work, i'm on six figures. Everyone starts off in the shitter. It's solely up to you to put in the hard yards, put in the effort to upskill, put up and shuttup if you fuck up, and then fix it.
My advice would be not to give up on the dreaming big... there's always a point to motivate yourself and push yourself to. What you need to do is work out a plan to get you to the dream, or at least closer to it.
Many of the comms guys i know of, most of the really good guys... did defence force comms... why not give them a try. Structured. Guaranteed. 90% of their staff are fkd in the head to start off with so you'll fit right in!