Consolidated Business & Enterprise Computing Rant Thread

Discussion in 'Business & Enterprise Computing' started by elvis, Jul 1, 2008.

  1. bcann

    bcann Member

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    See,

    I've always assumed that being able to fit into a team was more wank material, i've generally seen teams that are that protective of their culture to generally be filled full of princesses, and more often then not poorly skilled princesses. For me, being professional, even if you don't like the person is the thing, i will never try to make your life a hell, or obstruct you from doing your job by being a dick myself. I go to work to earn a living not necessarily to make friends, but if i do, then so be it, but being professional and getting the job done efficiently is where i am at. I've worked at a number of places where people have been outright hostile, even blocked access to things i needed to know, and these were team environments (admittedly i was brought in to get rid of that person/team because they were actively hostile to the business as well, so it was kinda expected). Attitude is one thing, being professional is another. I don't make anyones lives impossible, if you want to know something, ask, if you want me to do something ask... its that simple, and i expect the same in return.
     
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  2. PabloEscobar

    PabloEscobar Member

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    It's easier to quantify if a skill has been taught, than if an attitude has been adjusted, which is why "You can teach skills, you can't teach attitude" is such a popular anecdote

    If your work is a "Jeans and T-shirts" workplace. and you Hire a suit-person, you can watch them get more and more casual over time - this is essentially 'learning attitude'
     
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  3. cvidler

    cvidler Member

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    yeah but if you hire a fuck wit, that's unlikely to get better, rather the rest of the place will become less productive.
     
  4. caspian

    caspian Member

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    not just being a fuckwit, or a princess, or an antisocial arsehole.

    thinking more concepts like conservative approach to network management, understanding and respecting fundamentals of uptime/availability and security, attention to detail, understanding the dynamics of departmental politics, ability to deal effectively with others and represent the team to the rest of the business, and knowing when it's important to follow the rules - and when they're empowered to break them, because the situation requires it.
     
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  5. OP
    OP
    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Counter argument: if you hire an unteachable dumbass, all the warm fuzzies in the world won't help you.

    I'm not necessarily trying to shit on the "team fit is more important than tech skills" point, because honestly I'm not sure where I sit in that hard dichotomy. But I've had do deal with both extremes - the genius arsehole and the super team player moron, and neither leave you in a good spot when the chips are down.

    Hiring good people in tech is a nightmare. The entire industry is filled to the brim with people who have all manner of personality issues (to be fair, this is much the same as any other industry and their specific personality types that are attracted to them, it's just I'm sick to death of IT people who can't communicate for shit). But at the same time there's a real shortage of people who possess the basic troubleshooting skills needed to solve 99.9% of IT problems, which frequently fall into the "you'll see this once, and never again" bucket.

    I don't really know what the answer is. All I know is that, no matter what the team size, no matter what the good intentions of HR, I'm more often than not left to fend for myself when real problems arise. I've been blessed with the odd amazing team mate here or there over the years, but they're the exception, not the rule.
     
  6. theSeekerr

    theSeekerr Member

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    I think you're looking at it the wrong way around - if you can find competent people, 90% of them will fit in, but you still don't want to hire the 10% who don't
     
  7. cvidler

    cvidler Member

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    damn all these grey areas, why can't people be like computers, if they misbehave you can just boot them. ;)
     
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  8. OP
    OP
    elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Don't start me on the UBI rant.
     
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  9. PabloEscobar

    PabloEscobar Member

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    How do you garner all that information from a Job interview?
    ---

    Someone coming from a Hyper-V background, can be taught ESX
    someone coming from an IT Cowboy background, can be taught change management.
     
  10. cvidler

    cvidler Member

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    oh, it's not time yet?

    you don't, that's why there's a probation period.
     
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  11. chip

    chip Member

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    interviewing is a total crapshoot - at best you're selecting for someone who's good enough at bullshit to tell you what you want to hear.
     
  12. bcann

    bcann Member

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    Sooooo Management material, hell, even C Level.
     
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  13. looktall

    looktall Working Class Doughnut

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    My schedule has it down for June.
     
  14. caspian

    caspian Member

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    I talk to them. pose scenarios and ask for their thoughts, reactions and how they would proceed. I ask them for examples they have previously encountered themselves. I contact their references and discuss the role and the candidate's suitability for it. and often I have the luxury of hiring internally, so there's a lot of information available to help guide the decision making process.

    what do you do to determine the suitability of someone for a position?
     
  15. gav1ski

    gav1ski Member

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    This is the biggest hiring issue across the board. When hiring for programmers I sit them though a simple "debug this application" test with a range of build and runtime issues built in. The amount of people that apply for senior dev roles that can't do this is stupidly high, to the point if I see a masters on a resume the candidate has a higher chance to be skipped as almost every candidate that has had this has failed the debug test.
     
  16. looktall

    looktall Working Class Doughnut

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    Their real skill lies in introducing bugs.
     
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  17. theSeekerr

    theSeekerr Member

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    To paraphrase Dijkstra because I'm too lazy to Google the quote - "If debugging is the process of removing bugs, it stands to reason that programming is the process of putting them in"
     
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  18. millsy

    millsy Member

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    I mean to an extent you'd hope you can structure your interview questions to try and avoid that.

    When I was interviewing people it was a lot of 'tell me your understanding of x' and 'explain the concepts behind y' rather than 'how do you do z'
     
  19. Rass

    Rass Member

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    It's gotta be the right person. My partner works with a heap of people who are really nice but have absolutely no interested or ability to learn anything computer related, even though it's an essential part of their role.

    Other people might have the desire, but mightn't be capable.

    It's a set of bell curves, one for each of the things - attitude, teach-ability, receptiveness, etc .. all our meat is different, so we have different thresholds for all of this stuff.
     
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  20. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

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    At 56 the whole "having to learn something new debate" pisses me off, I learn new stuff everyday because its part of the job! Programmers who can't learn a new language / framework aren't programmers, same with the ones that say "its easier to rewrite the whole system rather than modify because its too messy / hard", how the fuck do you replicate all the functions if you can't read / understand the code? Now mastering a specific subject matter that takes time to know and learn all the nuances, but with today's easy access to information / disinformation the accelerated rate at which you can learn / master something is dramatically increased compared to my experiences reading printed manuals for a mainframe because there wasn't enough storage for MAN pages back in the day (80s), compared to today's interwebs information highway, I choose today .

    Same goes for system administration, everyday you learn something new, otherwise your not really doing your job.

    /2c

    PS - Bonus points for programmers who don't know how to debug / trace, just fuck off.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2021
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