Discussion in 'Business & Enterprise Computing' started by elvis, Jul 1, 2008.
Teehee.. the funny bit is where he said "solid 7 hour work day".
The rest of it went over my head.
*sigh* IT really needs a union.
Ban unpaid overtime, or overtime in general, so companies have to actually employ enough staff to handle the workload.
Paid training in normal hours INSTEAD of work, even one day a week.
Training courses for managers on how to not make a mess of IT departments/staff.
Proper pay rates consistant with the expense required to get qualifications in the first place.
A usefull practical IT course would be:
How to document your work/code
How to tell your boss to leave you the fsck along while you fix the problem
Noob user ESP
Why Microsoft products suck
Its sad when the only real skills I've picked up from working in the IT industry are things like: How not to run a company, How not to respect your staff, Why undocumented code is bad.
The true IT professionals have moved to management type positions in no way connected to IT, the pay is better, the hours are less and there is more respect.
Seems to me most of you do not understand the meaning of the IT profession. Most of you forum users are only referring to the IT admin role. IT is a whole lot more broad than that. Think you people need to do more research before bashing the IT industry....
Can't pay the rent with passion my friend.
I'm not admin, and reading this thread, a lot of different areas of IT experience the same shit.
Count yourself very lucky that they consider 35 hours overtime.
We've had some guys at my place, and other places I've worked, who have thought that 2 hours a day work was too much. The problem with being the decent I.T. guy is that I then get trusted to pick up their slack because I get shit done quickly and accurately. Then my work is delayed.
Wouldn't be so bad if the work I was delaying wasn't server/infrastructure and what I was being asked to do could be done by someone fresh out of a Tafe course
Oh and to support the anecdotes even further, both of them have more certificates than me, which isn't hard as I have none!
Everything to do with money. Why would someone spend the $1000s (or the time) to learn all those things to get paid 50, 60, $70k in return? Particularly when their mate left school @ 15 and is now taking home $90k as a plumber, and paying almost no income tax.
It just doesn't pay to be skilled in IT. I know my skills far exceed what I get paid for my IT job - but that's the norm, and people have no real respect for what the job involves. I could be driving a damn truck for more than double what I currently earn in a complex and challenging IT job.
From where I sit the current disease that is apathy and incompetence is affecting the whole industry from head to toe. Whether it's support or management, whether it's the hands-on fixit guys or the long term big picture guys.
I've had my time at all ends of the IT spectrum, in a wide variety of industries, small, big, and bloody huge business. The IT profession has been my life for the last two decades - and when clocking in some of the hours I've done, that counts for even more.
The one constant in all of that time is the ever falling rate of professionalism of the industry as a whole. It's depressing as all hell to be ashamed and disgusted with something I used to be so proud of.
i almost completely agree with everything you have said there. This is not an attack on you OP, if anything its an extension of your rant.
Could it be attributed to the self contained *me* worlds we seem to live in. In which we cocoon ourselves, and others, up in a pseudo bubble wrap and focus almost completely upon ourselves. I use the word pseudo because, as we know its not bubble wrap. Its plain ignorance. Fear even. But "if it aint broke don't fix it right?" Right?
Perhaps if we cared slightly more about others, namely in this case our jobs, we could see the bigger picture. We could see that by cheating on University exams, we are not actually gaining anything. Oh sure, a degree. But what good is a degree, without the knowledge of what to do with it. Its just paper. Damn paper. Looks fancy eh. Well, without any idea what to do with it, its just bloody paper.
See if we cared enough about what we were doing in life, and looked at our jobs/careers as opportunities to provide something to humanity perhaps we could understand the damage we can cause through our narcissistic ignorance.
Newsflash people, there's over 6 billion people on this planet. No I'm not saying donate to a charity that will keep 90% for administration costs, just that there's a lot to be learned and contributed back. If you care to think of the bigger picture.
Open your minds. Look beyond one solution.
Otherwise we will have to invade another country for oil.
But I get paid to read manuals during the day.
You have made some really good points in there.
I have been in the IT industry for quite a long time now, and I for 1 find it some times hard to find the time and motervation to stay abrest with it all to be honest.
But 1 thing I think many in IT have bad is the ability to comunicate and work in a team.
Yes you might work with 1 person in a team of lets say 4 people in a IT department quite well, but how about the other 2? I find many people I have worked with in IT to be either arrogant know it all's or people who could not communicate to there own mother (and in many cases both of these traits go with the same person).
Although I agree with many things that have been spoken in this forum I do think many of you have to look and see how others work in there professions and compare that to IT. Take a TAX accountant, every year they have to learn all the new tax rules and regs and this in many ways is like IT addapting to new technolgies, but they do not feel they need to know most of the complexities of it. Many of them work together and ask questions and help each other.
This is where I feel IT is having issues and that is people do not help each other enough in IT but choose to sit back and complain and say look at all the idiots around me. That to me is not the right attitude to have.
I used to have a real passion for IT until I quickly realised how shit the industry is and quickly moved to engineering instead. Everything about engineering is 10x more professional than the average IT Joe.
Good to hear then, I'm looking to go into engineering and definitely not considering IT as a fall back.
I've in my time worked for two New Zealand legal publishing companies - in fact, the only two.
One hired graduates with little experience, paid them terrible wages until they left, and focused predominantly on how they looked, rather than how technically stable and concrete their setup was. By the time I left, there were two people leaving the company every week. One woman told me her mother (who also worked there) cried every sunday about having to go back to work there the next day.
They were, like most companies, a legal publishing company which failed to make the switch over to IT, and hung onto outdated procedures, band-aid coding and people who were so crap that they didn't leave.
The other company focused on product and performance, had managers who actually could read and understand the code that their underlings produced, and had a strong infrastructure based on well-developed coding and techniques. They'd taken IT and made it the core of their business, and had respected it. That's what differentiated the two.
They were both crap, but one was less crap than the other.
Both had idiot admins who's jobs I could've done standing on my head, but always looked down on programmers like we were scum.
However one had a ping-pong table.
The other had those awful corporate suck-up meetings at the end of every week where the head manager wanked on about shit and eventually everybody got bored and ate nibbles and went home.
BTW, that manager eventually left to manage a NZ rugby team
Yes, his heart and mind were in the business.
Very interesting thread.
Elvis, I hope you have the same passion for time spent with the wife and kiddies as you have for IT.
There are many things that I could list wrong with the IT industry as it stands, the hours, deadlines, payrates, etc. What other industry is there where you go to uni, work your way up and then have to constantly study in you own time while still getting paid less than than the guy next door who drives a delivery truck. It's not just me that feels this way, and I know of more than a few people that are excaping IT. Companies expect you to know everything off the bat, don't provide support and complain when you don't get it right.
They hire people from these "IT Colleges" where you pay to get a qualification in 3 weeks or whatever it is and treat them the same as someone with 100 times the knowledge.
Fortunately I have found my out and now work in a more hardware oriented side of the oil/gas industry. The pay and conditions are better and I don't have to worry about my work when I get home
I hear exactly where you are coming from.
I recently got a job in a largish company who's IT is based around a sub contractor who is there 4 days per week. She is supposed to be my mentor but when it comes to anything that is not written in a Microsoft course book or some Cisco press, she would not have the slightest idea.
If any new issue comes up her solution is to call another multinational company to sub contract the work out to them, and for them to leave the "operations manual".
We recently got a a new SAN installed, when i asked why we had 1tb of space to use, but she only got them the make 200gb usable if i could make another LUN and move the database over to it. She replied "I will have to get the techs out to do that" She also spent 2 weeks getting PHP to work on a W2k3 IIS system, why I have no idea, because I had it going on a CentOS VM in a few hours.
I asked why she didn't use the free solution; it was because she "couldn't support it."
If i could find a job where i could actually work with different systems and learn how to do things, rather than calling a 'tech guy' out i would leave in a second.
I think part of the problem is to do with companies being so overwhelmed with medocracy, that they've taken to it being the norm and settle for it, even if they shouldn't.
IT became the 'in' thing to do. Everyone flocked it. Because there was such a demand, education quality went through the floor and so you had IT graduates who are scared to touch hardware, because 'that's not the field they got into' or 'they only do code' or some bullshit, and quite honestly are scared of installing RAM or a videocard or whatnot because they've never done it before, despite becoming a graduate of some field of IT.
Fuck off. If I gave the excuse that as a Mechanical engineer, I didn't have to know any electronics because it's not the field I got into, I'd be laughed out of my job.
There's such an expectation of specialisation of role now, combined with the dumbed down education, that you get people who are utterly useless as soon as they have to show any sort of dynamic ability. This means that you've got an attitude of sticking to what you know, and only doing what has been done, and so you get exactly what you describe in people going 'oh exchange doesn't work with [insert system], so we must stick with this one way where everything works because that's what's always done'.
As a result, companies never find anyone competent, and so the mediocre IT failure of an employee becomes the accepted norm.
This is about the #2 reason why I didn't do IT as a degree, with #1 being that I didn't want to mix my job and my hobby in a stressful environment where my abilities aren't let run at full capacity (due to, funnily enough, mediocre peers as you describe). I avoided it like the plague, and instead did engineering (another interest). There's some bad grapes here, but you quickly get a reputation, and you have to at least meet some certifications if you want to go anywhere past the bottom, and so it's regulated at least to some degree.
IT has nothing of the sort. It flew too high and burned the wing, and now it's outgrown its capabilities by being saturated by people who don't know anything outside of the shitty education they've been given. There's no stringency to who manages to get qualifications, and no professional bodies enforcing a certain level of performance. As a result, there's shit people throughout the entire of it and you get the miserable result you see.
If engineering was allowed to be as uncontrolled as IT is, you'd have deaths all over the place and litigation galore. At least in IT, the fuckups cost money and are abstracted away from the person who caused them, so the blame isn't as pointedly obvious at being from incompitency. IT really needs to be cleaned up, and I think you're right in saying that perhaps only a massive crash and burn for a few years will do it.
Kudos for the rant Elvis - nice to know that there are others out there who find this situation so abhorrent, although it does sound like perhaps you were having a particularly bad day when you started the thread
Sadly this seems to be norm among so many IT "pros", knowing your stuff is secondary to being able to seem like you do - with a healthy does of BS to the layman and sucking up where applicable.
It's enough to make you go crazy, hey it probably could and will get worse before it gets better... but in the meantime at least it pays the bills.
"She also spent 2 weeks getting PHP to work on a W2k3 IIS system"
Thanks sandtaker, that was funny
I'm 21 and work for an IT company. I'm taking a break from my engineering degree and I get annoyed when the directors try and call us 'Network Engineers'. We're not... we have no standards, we have no training or certification and most of the time, no clue.
There is no structure to anything despite one of the directors spouting something about ITIL. Our senior techs solution to everything is "Put a raid 5 array in there and some more ram", there is no methodology or logic for anything. It's just haphazardly throwing solutions at something to make it go away.
Don't even get me started on there lack of understanding about OSS software. The day my boss realises I'm using Ubuntu and not Vista, I'll eat my own head.
I get ignored because I'm the newest employee and also the youngest. I cringe at almost every server that goes out and the promises that our sales team attach to it. They still haven't started using SAS drives in servers... I had 5 dead WD Raptors on my desk at one stage, yet noone cares.
It's a very retarded industry, everyone wants the best but doesn't pay for it. Then they proceed to complain and spend thousands in support to make up for it.