1. OCAU Merchandise is available! Check out our 20th Anniversary Mugs, Classic Logo Shirts and much more! Discussion in this thread.
    Dismiss Notice

Consolidated Tax/ATO discussion thread

Discussion in 'Blockchain & Cryptocurrency Mining' started by whatdoesthisdo, Jan 24, 2018.

  1. mindgrenadius

    mindgrenadius Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2014
    Messages:
    32
    That's really good to know, thanks for that!

    I really wanted to know this back in Dec, I would have sold for USDT and not had to deal with CGT. I'm fine (well, sorta) to pay CGT on it when I do cash out but not just hedging to buy more lower...

    All well and good to lock in profits but if I need BTC to drop more than 30-50% to not make a BTC loss then it's a little inefficient
     
  2. Stooge007

    Stooge007 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    Messages:
    11,980
    Location:
    The Shire, Sydney
    i would take what the early engagement team say with a grain of salt

    i would still be keeping all records i could, just in case
     
  3. IncredibleBulk

    IncredibleBulk Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    Kings Langley
    Isn't that the same for standard tax claims? I don't see why so many people get confused over it.... I make quite a few deductions every year due to work expenses (travel, uniform, boots etc). I only lodge the final value but have the individual proof of each

    The ATO isn't going to accept "oh but I didn't know" as an acceptable excuse for not being able to prove where your money went / came from. May not sting you now or next year, but at some point it will. Especially if / when you decide to cash out and buy something that is obviously traceable (house)
     
  4. papillon

    papillon Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2001
    Messages:
    1,306
    Location:
    Melbourne
    edit wrong thread
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  5. bob05

    bob05 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2009
    Messages:
    272
    Location:
    NSW
    Because the government is lousy at spending tax payer money, also they didn't earn it. They deserve no ones investment returns.
     
  6. IncredibleBulk

    IncredibleBulk Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    Kings Langley
    So I had an interesting chat with the ATO yesterday about how they treat crypto-mining. The basics of their reply was "unless you outlaid tens of thousands of dollars in equipment cost and / or where turning a massive profit, it would be hard to argue that you are doing it as a business, and therefore can't claim costs from doing so"

    They then followed up by saying that this could / would change come April when the ATO "cements" their position on mining, which is currently seen as an investment and not a business

    I argued that if they don't see mining as a business, why is it not classed as a hobby and therefore income that is not required to be declared. The lady on the other end of the phone stumbled a bit there and said "well, you're doing it for profit and it's something done frequently... so it can't be a hobby" (those two classifications would make it fall into the "is this a business" realm though)

    Really they sound confused how to classify it at this point

    This is enough for me to hold off until after April before I jump in or nota

    EDIT:

    I'm sure there are still loopholes that exist to claim back expenses related to equipment cost (legally of course). Since they treat crypto as an asset, you should be allowed to offset equipment / electrical / rental cost against any capital gains (not financial advice, just my opinion)
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
  7. Stooge007

    Stooge007 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    Messages:
    11,980
    Location:
    The Shire, Sydney
    as noted previously, i wouldn't take anything the ATO call centre gives you as advice

    if you were talking to one of the top brass, e.g. Chris Jordan, Andrew Mills, Kirsten Fish etc., then you might have something you can rely on
     
  8. IncredibleBulk

    IncredibleBulk Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    Kings Langley
    Yeah she sounded like she wanted to help... but honestly was as confused as the rest of us. Basically told me a few times that maybe waiting until after the April for clarification
     
  9. Stooge007

    Stooge007 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    Messages:
    11,980
    Location:
    The Shire, Sydney
    the ATO recently updated its guidance on The Taxation of Cryptocurrency

    https://www.ato.gov.au/general/gen/...rrencies-in-australia---specifically-bitcoin/

    the highlights:

    this means you are taxable on coin to coin trades

    ruling out claiming "personal use asset" status for a lot of people

    regarding record keeping:

     
  10. shredder

    shredder Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2001
    Messages:
    13,969
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Do you (or have you ever) hold or trade any coins, Stooge007? Just wondering.
     
  11. Stooge007

    Stooge007 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    Messages:
    11,980
    Location:
    The Shire, Sydney
    very minor dabbling a while ago

    doesn't really fit my risk profile now
     
  12. Cadbury

    Cadbury Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2004
    Messages:
    4,781
    Location:
    Coogee, WA
    That sounds unworkable. What about people who do dozens or even hundreds (bots) of trades a day?
     
  13. spootmonkey

    spootmonkey Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2001
    Messages:
    10,289
    Location:
    Cohannesburg
    The same obligations as fall on day traders in other fields.
     
  14. Stooge007

    Stooge007 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    Messages:
    11,980
    Location:
    The Shire, Sydney
    the ATO is unlikely to accept "it's too hard to keep track of" as an excuse

    they have the power to deem an assessment on you, and the onus would be on you to prove them wrong (which is time consuming and expensive if you engage a professional)
     
  15. shredder

    shredder Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2001
    Messages:
    13,969
    Location:
    New Zealand
    You make tax sound so awesome! :)

    Mind you it's not difficult to export trade history from most exchanges (the ones that still exist, anyway), bung it into a spreadsheet, and have net gain/loss for each transaction simply calculated. I further suppose it would be possible to bot in AUD values at specific times for specific coins. Someone will automate that, in time. And once you're at that stage, it doesn't really matter if it's 10 rows in the spreadsheet or 10,000.

    It's not really a situation that's going to involve the most complex maths in the world.

    On another hand, records at exchanges where one hasn't undertaken any KYC measures would by definition fall into the "rather less detectable" category.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  16. IncredibleBulk

    IncredibleBulk Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,060
    Location:
    Kings Langley
    This is what happens when people have no real idea what they are doing. Get suckered in by the "lambo baby" memes and then reality slaps them hard in the face
     
  17. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    Messages:
    10,409
    Location:
    Briz Vegas
    Automated trades are easier to track as you should have a log/record, no different to Stock Exchange bot trading you still need to record all trades.

    PS - ATO still have NFI on mined coins.
     
  18. shredder

    shredder Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2001
    Messages:
    13,969
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Totally. It's like, people who have no idea what they're talking about, and just get into things on a whim, following their simple assumptions, which are often very wrong, gets them into trouble that they could have easily just stayed out of. But that's people for you, hey? Sometimes they just can't help putting their foot into things they know very little about.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
    whatdoesthisdo likes this.
  19. Optimus.

    Optimus. Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2002
    Messages:
    6,729
    As if the legislation didn't exist at the time but they should have thought ahead for the exact scenario of the tax dept clambering for their pound of flesh.
     
  20. Stooge007

    Stooge007 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2006
    Messages:
    11,980
    Location:
    The Shire, Sydney
    the legislation is actually deliberately drafted quite broadly in respect of CGT (and everything really), and anyone who is familiar with that legislation agrees that you get pinged on on coin to coin transfers

    it's only those that are unfamiliar with the actual legislation that are complaining
     

Share This Page

Advertisement: