Consolidated Tax/ATO discussion thread

That's really good to know, thanks for that!

I really wanted to know this back in Dec, I would have sold for USDT and not had to deal with CGT. I'm fine (well, sorta) to pay CGT on it when I do cash out but not just hedging to buy more lower...

All well and good to lock in profits but if I need BTC to drop more than 30-50% to not make a BTC loss then it's a little inefficient

 

i would take what the early engagement team say with a grain of salt

i would still be keeping all records i could, just in case

 

Isn't that the same for standard tax claims? I don't see why so many people get confused over it.... I make quite a few deductions every year due to work expenses (travel, uniform, boots etc). I only lodge the final value but have the individual proof of each

The ATO isn't going to accept "oh but I didn't know" as an acceptable excuse for not being able to prove where your money went / came from. May not sting you now or next year, but at some point it will. Especially if / when you decide to cash out and buy something that is obviously traceable (house)

 

edit wrong thread

 

Because the government is lousy at spending tax payer money, also they didn't earn it. They deserve no ones investment returns.

 

So I had an interesting chat with the ATO yesterday about how they treat crypto-mining. The basics of their reply was "unless you outlaid tens of thousands of dollars in equipment cost and / or where turning a massive profit, it would be hard to argue that you are doing it as a business, and therefore can't claim costs from doing so"

They then followed up by saying that this could / would change come April when the ATO "cements" their position on mining, which is currently seen as an investment and not a business

I argued that if they don't see mining as a business, why is it not classed as a hobby and therefore income that is not required to be declared. The lady on the other end of the phone stumbled a bit there and said "well, you're doing it for profit and it's something done frequently... so it can't be a hobby" (those two classifications would make it fall into the "is this a business" realm though)

Really they sound confused how to classify it at this point

This is enough for me to hold off until after April before I jump in or nota

EDIT:

I'm sure there are still loopholes that exist to claim back expenses related to equipment cost (legally of course). Since they treat crypto as an asset, you should be allowed to offset equipment / electrical / rental cost against any capital gains (not financial advice, just my opinion)

 

as noted previously, i wouldn't take anything the ATO call centre gives you as advice

if you were talking to one of the top brass, e.g. Chris Jordan, Andrew Mills, Kirsten Fish etc., then you might have something you can rely on

 

Yeah she sounded like she wanted to help... but honestly was as confused as the rest of us. Basically told me a few times that maybe waiting until after the April for clarification

 

the ATO recently updated its guidance on The Taxation of Cryptocurrency

https://www.ato.gov.au/general/gen/...rrencies-in-australia---specifically-bitcoin/

the highlights:

this means you are taxable on coin to coin trades

ruling out claiming "personal use asset" status for a lot of people

regarding record keeping:

 

Do you (or have you ever) hold or trade any coins, Stooge007? Just wondering.

 

very minor dabbling a while ago

doesn't really fit my risk profile now

 

That sounds unworkable. What about people who do dozens or even hundreds (bots) of trades a day?

 

The same obligations as fall on day traders in other fields.

 

the ATO is unlikely to accept "it's too hard to keep track of" as an excuse

they have the power to deem an assessment on you, and the onus would be on you to prove them wrong (which is time consuming and expensive if you engage a professional)

 

You make tax sound so awesome!

Mind you it's not difficult to export trade history from most exchanges (the ones that still exist, anyway), bung it into a spreadsheet, and have net gain/loss for each transaction simply calculated. I further suppose it would be possible to bot in AUD values at specific times for specific coins. Someone will automate that, in time. And once you're at that stage, it doesn't really matter if it's 10 rows in the spreadsheet or 10,000.

It's not really a situation that's going to involve the most complex maths in the world.

On another hand, records at exchanges where one hasn't undertaken any KYC measures would by definition fall into the "rather less detectable" category.

 

This is what happens when people have no real idea what they are doing. Get suckered in by the "lambo baby" memes and then reality slaps them hard in the face

 

Automated trades are easier to track as you should have a log/record, no different to Stock Exchange bot trading you still need to record all trades.

PS - ATO still have NFI on mined coins.

 

Totally. It's like, people who have no idea what they're talking about, and just get into things on a whim, following their simple assumptions, which are often very wrong, gets them into trouble that they could have easily just stayed out of. But that's people for you, hey? Sometimes they just can't help putting their foot into things they know very little about.

 

As if the legislation didn't exist at the time but they should have thought ahead for the exact scenario of the tax dept clambering for their pound of flesh.

 

the legislation is actually deliberately drafted quite broadly in respect of CGT (and everything really), and anyone who is familiar with that legislation agrees that you get pinged on on coin to coin transfers

it's only those that are unfamiliar with the actual legislation that are complaining