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Does fluoride really cause cancer?

Discussion in 'Science' started by ck_psy, Apr 10, 2012.

  1. TRAG!C

    TRAG!C Member

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    Even though I know I shouldn't post in this thread... (sigh) for shits and giggles i searched on Fluoride and headaches which landed me at livestrong

    Now is it just me or is the Fluoride Action Network claming that USA has lethal doses of fluoride in their water. If they are... have they not bothered to look up from their desks to see everyone hasn't dropped dead yet.
     
  2. RobRoySyd

    RobRoySyd Member

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    I see some truth there, it's hard to image how flouride would impact the incidence of migraines and hence unlikely any study would even be looking for a correlation. The studies do look for the obvious, effects on teeth and bones. Cancer is also looked into because good datasets are available, cancer being a notifiable condition in most countries.

    Trying to do an epidermatological study looking for a correlation between flouride and migraines would be difficult. I don't know about the rest of the world but here in Australia morbidity data is only collected for admitted patients at a state and national level and migraines rarely involve an admission to hospital. The only other possible source of data would be from specialists treating migraines however unless the flouride is causing serious migraines quite possibly few of those suffering migraines due to flouride have even seen a specialist.

    So perhaps the only other path to go down is further study of this one case.
    That's not helped here by you simply deciding you know the cause, dealing with it yourself and not going back to a doctor and presenting your findings. Any good doctor should be thinking "this patient might be nuts but we first must exclude the possibility that he's right". As hinted at, a proper experiment to test the flouride link is the next step and it's not going to be hard or expensive to conduct.
     
  3. zzzzz

    zzzzz Member

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    You could test this by a double blind test (i.e. neither the tester nor person being tested knowing whether a sample contains fluoride): Drinking purified water vs purified water+fluoride at the concentration in tap water (1ppm) for say a week each and see what happens after a few repetitions.

    I find it more interesting that someone (a small percentage of people) could have a high sensitivity to fluoride causing non-specific symptoms, than stories about Hitler, poison and conspiracy theories.
     
  4. garetz

    garetz Member

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    This is a ridiculous pre-proposition, fluoride builds up in your body over a great length of time, your body has no way of naturally using up fluoride or getting rid of it in efficient means. If i remember correctly, fluoride can continuously build up in the body over 12 months to many years. The more you consume the bigger effect it may have on you, imagine if people were allergic to the substance. How can you determine what will happen or severity. Its just different people may have adverse affects at different levels. Some people may not show adverse affects at any level but death when they reach the levels required to kill you.

    The study required to determine what is happening, would need 1000s of people if not 10s of thousands, and the subjects cannot know if they are taking fluoride or not. Then a % of the subjects would take 5ppm, another % 10ppm, and so on, till a maximum amount of 100pm. Keep in mind if they find anything out of the ordinary it could all be covered up by a government authority who has been feeding us fluoride for years, and could be legally responsible for who knows what. We really do not know what fluoride does in our bodies, as no comprehensive study has ever been done. Ideally a study of this nature would happen for over a decade. The only organisation capable of doing it here is probably the csiro.

    I wouldnt hold my breath.


    5mg/kg is not equivalent to 5ppm, ppm is an absolute, mg/kg is based on density.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  5. zzzzz

    zzzzz Member

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    I think you're convinced that you have a sensitivity to fluoride (at 1ppm tap-water levels) causing headaches. Why not test it in a controlled test at your individual level?

    Perhaps you are disinterested in testing which will exclude other possible causes, as the results might show that fluoride isn't the problem?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  6. power

    power Member

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    dentists are bloody charlatans anyway if you ask me, I have perfect teeth and I'm in my late 30's no thanks to fluoride in the water more down to good genetics.

    I drank tank water and bore water for years and now Brisbane town water for years as well. Fluoride, schmuoride!
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  7. The Wolf

    The Wolf Member

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    Incorrect
    Incorrect
    Incorrect
    Incorrect
    Incorrect understanding of what an allergic reaction is
    Incorrect understanding of toxicity
    Incorrect

    Do you notice a pattern forming here? You know nothing of that which you speak with such authority of.
     
  8. mareke

    mareke Member

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    Lucky you for having good genetics! My teeth are genetically soft and prone to decay just like my mother’s teeth that had rotted away by the time she died. Unfortunately I missed out on the benefits of fluoridation when I was young so I have to work hard to ensure my teeth last. I've seen fluoridation, rightly in my opinion, listed as one of the top 10 medical advances of the 20th century. Its main benefits are to kids who don't have parents who teach their kids good dental hygiene. Narcissistic people that view the issue solely from their own ego centric point of view (because for them there are no others) will disagree with this. If they have good teeth thanks to good genetics and good parenting they will object to fluoridation because they see the world solely in terms of what benefits them since they have no concept of any greater good. Fluoride occurs naturally in water. Only the levels are tweaked by scientists to give an overall benefit to the population particularly that section of the population that isn't in a position to take care of itself-the young who don't have parents who care enough to ensure their kids practice good dental hygiene.

    Yes there's a 'forced medication' argument that the civil liberties brigade will bring up but after around 100 years of experience of fluoridation having been tried around the world it's now unequivocal that the overall effect is a substantial net benefit with very few if any proven disadvantages. If we allowed ourselves to be dictated to by those who are against change when the overwhelming preponderance of evidence is that it is beneficial we'd still be living in trees and swinging from branches.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  9. garetz

    garetz Member

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    The question is not why we should use fluoride at all, but why is it shoved down everyones throats, irrelevant if you need it or not. You should be within your rights to use it if you wish, but people who do not want to use it should have that option as well. Why do you think you are so special to deserve to use it at the expense of everyone else who doesnt want to use it. You could have the choice to do so, the problem is we who do not want to use it have no choice unless you want to spend alot of money on expensive reverse osmosis water purifiers. Your argument works against you just as much if not more than what you are arguing against.

    Would it be that hard to provide tablets that fluoridate water as a per user basis, instead of fluoridating the whole fricken water supply. Democracy is about choice, and when the choice is taken away, then it is no longer a democracy at work. Id rather have rotting teeth than crippling migraines, but do i have a choice in the matter ? NO except i invested in an expensive reverse osmosis filtering system.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  10. garetz

    garetz Member

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    When i was 8, i was given, as part of a school wide dosage, a big white tablet containing 1 mg of fluoride. I had a very adverse reaction to it, like vomiting and severe flu like symptoms. Approximately from this time to age 22, i had migraines, intense, skull splitting migraines. Unless you experience what i experienced, then at around 22 cutting out all fluoride, or most of it, alleviated these migraines, you cannot understand even the slightest inkling of what that can mean to a person like me. You wanting to confirm some kind of result, to prove beyond a doubt it was definately fluoride that caused my problems leads me to believe you are missing the entire point. I couldnt give a fuck if you believe me or not, or if the results can be made scientifically quantifiable. I related my experiences, your belief doesnt bother me in the least.
     
  11. the_fuzz

    the_fuzz Member

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    You mean 12 months later....... placebo.......or something completely unrelated like hormone changes etc
     
  12. zzzzz

    zzzzz Member

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    Can you tell me what the point is? It's not called the anecdote forum, so I'd have thought you'd be interested in testing your hypothesis.
     
  13. Foliage

    Foliage Member

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    Absolutely sounds like the problem here.
     
  14. Foliage

    Foliage Member

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    I also had a similar thing, as a child I experienced massive migraines, terrible to the point I was getting them 2-3 times a week, then we moved house and had a pura tap and they went away.

    THEN 3 YEARS LATER I WENT BACK TO DRINKING TAP WATER AND WAS FINE!
     
  15. Shado

    Shado Member

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    I had migraines since I was very young, they went away spontaneously in my late teens. I didn't have fluoride in my drinking water until my 30s. 12 months is far too long of a gap for them to be cause and effect. Plenty of people grow out of migraines, it's not necessarily related to any changes other than aging.

    'scientifically anecdotal'? These are two words which mean opposite things.

    You opinion isn't based on logic at all. It's based on something happening after the other thing.

    Democracy isn't about individual choice, it's about having a say. Fortunately in a democracy those who get a say usually tend to get convinced by facts rather than single issue party propaganda. No one is forcing anyone to have anything, there are plenty of other ways of obtaining water. There is no law that says you must drink from a specific water source. You're probably likely to find that your filtering system doesn't remove all the fluoride either.

    When you have reactions to things like this, the effect is felt within a few days (all the time it takes to remove it completely from your system). And it's felt regardless of if you know you have removed it. - Eg, if you had someone give you water with it, without your knowledge, and you got headaches. You'd have some scientific basis for your statements. If you stop a behaviour and expect to see results from it, there are very few humans who do not see those results.

    I actually used to have adverse reactions to big tablets regardless of their content (vomiting etc). I'd even have the reaction to a placebo tablet. I just really did not like big tablets. Also that amount in one tablet is much much more likely to cause a reaction than the amount in the water supply. There's also a massive difference between a stomach upset and cancer.

    Yeah, there is, the same way studies of the effects of things like fluoride exclude it. Make sure the subject being tested is not aware of if they are in the control group (not given the substance) or the test group (being given the substance). Then you measure reactions in each group.

    Luckily the studies that they have done on fluoride actually involve TENS OF MILLIONS of people. Most people are completely unaware of the fact that they are / are not drinking it. The people doing the studies are also not in the government, (so not responsible for the decisions to add it). Additionally given that we're in a very free and open country (as are the many others who have studied this), cover ups of science like this are pretty much impossible. Particularly given that any pro or anti fluoride group can have access to the method and raw data. The studies have taken place over MORE than a decade, and have involved multiple independent studies in many countries across the world.

    Science is repeatable, science is provable. Anything which is not repeatable and provable is not science.
     
  16. RobRoySyd

    RobRoySyd Member

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    I'm not convinced that's applicable to studies using statistics, especially in this case. Has anyone looked for a correlation between flouride and migraines?
     
  17. Foliage

    Foliage Member

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    Correlation doesn't prove causation though.
     
  18. maev

    maev Member

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    I'd say the difference is negligible. Haven't read through all the comments / resources or studies, but just saying 'so' and not knowing the standard diet, sugar, dairy and alternate intakes of the mass really shed's no light on the accuracy of the issue.

    If you're really concerned; I bought a water filter that removes fluoride and other shit in the water, cost $80 or so delivered and lasts for 1500 Gal.

    It's interesting the comment on their specific symptoms and suspicions to fluoride, but keep in mind that every 'body' is literally different, has various tolerances and allergies, and reacts in different ways to these. Find what works for you and live that way. As far as science helping cure harsh diseases, infections and virus' (legitimate harm that needs intervention), it's up to the person to find out what's best for their body. Relying on any study that isn't a study of your own body will always be inaccurate and have no merit beyond that of fixing an external issue (see disease, virus' and many more). Ultimately, anything that can be part of your diet should be regulated entirely by you.

    I read an interesting book about varying intolerances and allergies (that pertain to literally anything administered / ingested). Was summed up by:

    "They never die, and they never get better."

    Why would any doctor want to fix or care of your own issues if you're going to be paying for their luxury lifestyle. The only doc. that may help you is one that has him/herself suffered the very issue and is passionate to change another life.

    No one here has to justify or prove why they live why they do. I'd trust garetz in his own observations over those of anyone else's unless it was a controlled study specific only to him and it was found that another substance caused his issues (which isn't going to happen).

    Just my 2c, though I'm completely impartial to the fluoride issue, I just know from my own experience that the medical field could really give 2 shits about my own health (very generalized, though I'm yet to meet a passionate practitioner) and I had to take every stringent detail and matter into my own hands, and can appreciate he's done the same.

    I'm all for learning and seeing the hard facts and results; though I'll be testing them against my own body, because as I said we're all very much different.
     
  19. RobRoySyd

    RobRoySyd Member

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    Of course not. Finding a correlation is only the first step.

    As I pointed out previously this would not even be an easy correlation to look for in a population.

    Come to think of it I now wonder why no one has mentioned chlorine. I have noticed since Sydney's level of water chlorination has increased more zinc seems to leech out of brass tapware. I suspect that is also causing more lead to leech put of soft soldered joints and lead pipes. The effects of lead correlate better with the symptoms than the known way flouride acts in the body.
     
  20. gregpolk

    gregpolk Member

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    You suspect based on what? The people in charge of keeping an eye on how clean your tap water is saying absolutely nothing about it?
     

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