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Does fluoride really cause cancer?

Discussion in 'Science' started by ck_psy, Apr 10, 2012.

  1. chip

    chip Member

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    Two logical fallacies in one sentence, good work. (post hoc ergo propter hoc and appeal to ignorance.)
     
  2. jaxor24

    jaxor24 Member

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    Or just personal experience.
     
  3. Cpt.J.Sparrow

    Cpt.J.Sparrow Member

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    What about caffeine?

    Seriously, of all the chemicals found in tea and a number of clinical conditions whose symptoms include headache, you can isolate the cause of your headache to floride?

    Wow. :thumbup: :rolleyes:

    Fixed it for ya.
     
  4. garetz

    garetz Member

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    Over the years i have seen many documentaries and read dozens of studies, both supporting the use of fluoride and negating its use. Usually studies are done to support theories already thought as fact, alot of these so called studies are biased in the extreme. In fact alot of the official studies are commissioned and financed by groups who support fluoride, so of course their findings are going to support their own bias. Look at independent studies, that is where i get my info from. They are few and far between though.

    So because i chose not to read that one study that you profess to offer all the answers, and you based your opinion on, somehow invalidates my opinion and or experiences ? What does that make you ? a foolish individual.
    I prefer knowledge and education over false bravado and wit.

    The fact i responded to this at all, makes my response a fool's errand as nothing i am going to say will change your mind. I assume you experience no adverse affects from consuming fluoride but that doesnt mean everyone has no problems due to fluoride consumption. You are just making assumptions, and looking for data to support your own preconceived notions. I always look at both sides of an argument, can you say you do the same ? I think not.

    It took me years to figure out fluoride was causing my migraines, and it was the very last thing that i would have considered to be the case. However my experiences are to me beyond a shadow of a doubt what shaped my opinion on the matter. No amount of studies is going to change what i experienced. I am just so glad i didnt listen to the doctors/society at large and went out of my way to determine the problem and came to an equitable solution for my own benefit.
     
  5. garetz

    garetz Member

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    I am not a big caffeine drinker, i do drink coffee every so often, and i never had headaches from drinking coffee. I am not a scientist, and i am not going to dedicate my life to determining 100% that fluoride caused my headaches returning, but through logical assumption and reasoning thats what i determined. I do not believe in coincidence.
     
  6. .Radiant

    .Radiant Member

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    I can say that having flouride in my water will turn me a werewolf on heat during new moons, even if it were true it doesn't mean it also happens to anyone else and it's possible it'd be a fringe case/outlier. It's the issue with anecdotal evidence and why people dismiss it until relevant sources are cited, in this case a study linking fluoridated water and the effects people claim it has.

    People are free to voice their opinion but this the science forum, expect to be asked for some relevant sources that reinforce your opinion otherwise it's likely you will be shit upon.
     
  7. lennyc

    lennyc Member

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    Everybody knows that when you swallow water containing fluoride it goes into your stomach when the high acid levels results in the formation of hydrofluoric acid. An acid so powerful it will eat even glass. Thats why we still have headaches, diabetes, high blood pressure, arthritis etc. Must avoid fluoride, chlorine, bromine etc. at all costs. I use triple distiled reverse osmosis on all my fluids and food to stay healthy.

    Did you hear the one about being allergic to water.

    Fluoride in our drinking water has proven to be of benefit to the greater majority. If you do have a problem with it by all means avoid it. Just don't dictate to the majority. I am all for fluoride, vaccines and education.
     
  8. alch

    alch Member

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    Conspiracy theory nuts unite.... amirite...

    You never complained about the water before the internet.
     
  9. RobRoySyd

    RobRoySyd Member

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    Something doesn't add up there, you really need to read the report linked to previously. If flouride in drinking water was causing your migraines then drinking tea, I assume green tea or similar, then you migraines should have been severe rather than "nowhere near as bad". Tea can contain flouride levels between 280ppm and 400ppm, compared to drinking water at 1ppm.

    You were drinking tea at 280ppm - 400ppm, at the upper level it does cause issues with flourosis in teeth.

    Wthout doing a double blind test you simply don't know what you were experiencing. Migraines are not well understood and the causes multiple. The only correlation between anything to do with the brain and flouride is with regard to Alzheimer's:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_toxicity

     
  10. Foliage

    Foliage Member

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    READ THE FUCKING STUDY!!!!

    It covers the issues that are commonly associated with fluoride poisoning and shows that there are no issues in Australia vs countries that don't use fluoride in their water.

    It is as unbiased as it gets, DID YOU EVEN READ IT?
     
  11. jaxor24

    jaxor24 Member

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    It's not really like that at all since I can conclusively prove I have no teeth issues. If you could prove that you were lycanthropic, your anecdotal evidence would have value.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  12. Foliage

    Foliage Member

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    Neither of you can prove conclusively your claims though as it is the internet, that is his point. At this point in time both your claims are equally anecdotal and invalid.
     
  13. jaxor24

    jaxor24 Member

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    So those arguments are equal in your view? The probabilities that I have no teeth issues and fluoride turning someone into a vampire are equal? For someone who espouses the virtues of science that is pretty poor form. That is why 'debating' on the internet is pointless.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  14. Cpt.J.Sparrow

    Cpt.J.Sparrow Member

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    Yes, caffeine helps with headache. However, it can cause overuse or rebound headaches.
     
  15. Shado

    Shado Member

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    The major reasons for increased cancers:
    - Dying less from other things (living longer = more risk from cancer)
    - More things diagnosed as cancer - previously 'natural causes' covered some cancers

    On the other hand we can absolutely exclude tap water as a cause, because we actually have evidence to prove that it doesn't. Not everywhere in Australia has had fluoridation until recently, and the living standards in all the major capitals are the same, and the cancer rates, you guessed it, the same. So if it caused cancer, you'd expect to see it show up in statistics, and it doesn't.

    On the other hand, if you pump huge amounts of anything into your body, it can cause cancer. Even Vitamin C causes cancer, oxygen causes cancer. etc. It's a fact of life, if you live long enough, you're pretty much guaranteed to get some form of cancer eventually.

    The human immune system is awesome isn't it? So much so that if you only drank filtered water, you'd get sick more often.

    I don't know if I have no adverse affects from consuming fluoride, but I do know that not one double blind study has shown it to have such effects. There have been absolutely plenty showing that if people think something gives them headaches than it will however. So I'd say if you drink water you know has fluoride in it, it will probably give you a headache, if you thought it did not, it wouldn't.

    Unless you had someone else control your water supply and take note of what you were drinking and whether you had a headache, your own opinion, while having very real effects, is more likely to be the cause of your problem than the fluoride.

    There aren't both sides of an argument when it comes to science, just facts and people arguing against them because they think those facts are incorrect. When you have more information which changes the hypothesis, you either accept the new hypothesis or you continue being on the 'wrong' side.

    I'm not sure you get this. No one 'assumed' that fluoride was safe. They had some people drink it, and others not drink it, and measured how many people in each group got sick, headaches, cancer etc. Given a large enough group of each (and the groups for fluoride / non-fluoride are HUGE). You're talking about PROOF.

    Meanwhile, yes, if you think something will make you sick, it will. For no other reason than the brain can direct your body to feel sick.

    So everyone can be right on this. You are saying it makes you sick, I believe you, but it's only doing it because YOU believe it will. It won't make anyone sick if they don't believe it. Not unless they concentrate it massively.

    I hate blanket enforcement. Except in the case when you can conclusively prove the only negative effects are delusions, and the positive effects are significant and physical.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  16. .Radiant

    .Radiant Member

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    So debating without evidence is fine? :rolleyes:

    We can dismiss ridiculous examples like that based on the fact that to our knowledge, werewolves don't exist but in the event where someone actually does turn into a werewolf and studies have been conducted to show that fluoride is the cause, that study is there to reinforce that. When in doubt, no claim is anymore valid than the other until evidence is given, no matter how outlandish it can be.
     
  17. garetz

    garetz Member

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    I understand belief and perception can have a very strong reaction on your own well being, however i am not a hypochondriac. I very clearly explained i had migraines for years, since i was 8 years old, till my early 20s, and i had no idea what was the cause. I do not want to repeat myself, but once i removed all fluoride from my diet, 12 months later i was migraine free.

    Take from that what you will, but i may have been much more susceptible to the affects of fluoride, maybe genetically or environmentally. However that was my situation, and although it doesnt prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt, it maybe scientifically anecdotal. All i claim is my experiences, and how it affected me personally. It is my opinion that fluoride caused the problem, just through logical deduction and reasoning. Obviously i cannot prove it, but i can attest to my own experiences.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  18. The Wolf

    The Wolf Member

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    Or psycologically.... Most likely psycologically
     
  19. garetz

    garetz Member

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    Yes, psychologically, that makes perfect sense, it was all in my head, literally and figuratively. Since your head is where headaches reside.

    Makes sense. I fixated on something that i had no idea was causing a problem, and magically when i figured out what was causing it, and stopped it in my diet and the problem stopped, it must of all been a coincidence. Since it was just all in my head. I wish retarded people would stop responding to serious discussion.

    You don't have to agree with me, but at least make a reasonable argument or at least sense.

    If the issue was psychosomatic there is no way to know it, i could be part of a very small % of the population that gets migraines from fluoride, doesnt mean its in my head, It also doesnt mean its been extensively studied either.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  20. millhouse

    millhouse Chief Tiger Dentist

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    The reasonable argument is Placebo effect. Research it. A very real and very, very strong effect. All sorts of things effect results, and certainly a perception by the person undergoing and conducting the experiment that removal of Flouride from their water will have a positive effect will have a major effect on results.

    It is not a bad thing. It is a very real thing, and nothing to be scared of. If it was the reason for the change in your circumstance, then be thankful for it.
     

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