Freedom of Expression?

Discussion in 'The Gallery' started by Deckham, Jan 27, 2009.

  1. underskore

    underskore Member

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    im fairly sure this topic has been covered before, and it all comes down to context.
    the post in question was certainly questionable, but in the general case i totally agree with what you are saying.

    back to flags
    its all about context, if i saw our flag being burned by Osama in a video then i would get angry, but if i see protesters complaining about not getting the $950 bonus it wont realy bother me.

    (as mentioned elsewhere i cant help but wonder how our relationship with flags was influenced by a relative lack of manufacturing capabilities during the times that created these flag based traditions)
     
  2. OP
    OP
    Deckham

    Deckham Member

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    Do you believe that this style of protest has merit?
     
  3. Viljar

    Viljar Member

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    Hey Archades, are you able to understand simple graphics? Yes? Oh good. Why don't you follow this handy linky here, look at the graphics in the top right hand corner, and then come back and repeat what you said above.

    http://www.oxfam.org.au/campaigns/indigenous-health/.

    Hey, let me remind you:
    So, how do you square the math which the pretty little graph displays with what you just said? Do you think that Indigenous Australians kill themselves just for the fuck of it? Why don't you, while you're at it, go have a look at the representation of Indigenous Australians in places of power in this country? In educational institutions, in government and administration, in board rooms, in NGOs. Go ahead. Try to find a single fact that backs up your ignorant claim that Aboriginal people have as good if not better opportunities as the rest of us.

    Good for you that you don't mind being called a "wog". Maybe even you can manage to imagine, though, that if it HAD been used against you, against your friends, if it had been a means of oppressing YOU, you might have felt a bit differently about it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2009
  4. Archades

    Archades Member

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    Aboriginals are a minority, many live in remote area's where even if a white person lived in those conditions I'd dare say their health would be quite affected. They have the same opportunities as us if they were living in area's with better infrastructure to support them and many have moved and live in those areas.

    There are aboriginals in power but like white people, they have to work for it and not all are out there trying to achieve something better for themselves. They have to work at bettering their life, leaving the drug, alcohol, petrol,etc abuse behind as the only thing really oppressing them these days is their mental health and their communities. In my town there are free healthcare providers suited to aboriginal people (http://www.mamu.com.au/) and also they have access to atsic funding to help with school, etc.

    The people in power tend to come from not so remote towns and have fought tooth n nail to get to their positions, worked hard studied hard and are now in prominent positions of power.

    Now what kills the aboriginals early? I'm going to guess living in shitty conditions with widespread substance abuse and possibly not having an immune system as diverse as the average "white" person. Put the white populations in the same conditions and they'll prolly drop off quick too, much of which is brought upon themselves.

    Living in the middle of nowhere and expecting health care and services to rival large towns n cities IS NOT OPPRESSION.

    Now you're such a bleeding heart I expect you to be studying or in a job which you goto remote communities giving out service.
     
  5. MATTATHOME

    MATTATHOME Member

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    This is a great discussion but this whole thread is a little of topic.

    However Viljar most of us understand or at least are aware of the data that is around about health statistics ect.. But what i read through Archades point was that its not like the government are doing nothing. Didnt they gave Millions to ATSIC or similar that wasted the money? Spent it in the wrong areas?

    MAny of us "Whityes" have grown up and have friends who are indigenous australians. They get a taxi from school to after school care all paid for by the government, while other children had to walk or their parents have to pay for buses ect. Is this fair? Or the kid that got into university because she had the "tick " in the right box when another with the same OP missed out? Is this fair? Or the town that got new houses and furniture for nothing then destroyed the whole lot, while others sleep in the streets with no help! Is this fair? The new car that as long as they made the first 3 payments the government would pick up the rest! Is this fair?

    I'm not justifying anyone's or my own opinion, There is a problem across our whole community with which we as a nation need to deal with.

    As for no Indigenous Australians in places of power! These positions people need to earn. Being a democratic society people need to work hard earn respect, they should not be given a position because of the colour of the skin same as they should not, not be given it.


    Well my 2cents 2.2 with GST...

    MATT
     
  6. underskore

    underskore Member

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    in a sense no as its usually near impossible for its audience to understand or identify with, but in a simpler sense it certainly is an understandable expression of opposition to something.
     
  7. OP
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    Deckham

    Deckham Member

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    Yep, I think similarly.
    To me, it is akin to using shock-value to gain attention. It is probably 99% of the time ineffectual, and serves a counter-purpose to that intended.
     
  8. Darn

    Darn Member

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    Sifn't love Aus!! nuff said

    [​IMG]
     
  9. MR CHILLED

    MR CHILLED D'oh!

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  10. Darn

    Darn Member

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    No idea not my pic
     
  11. Viljar

    Viljar Member

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    This is my last post on this. I am posting this just to point out the glaring ignorance being displayed here.

    This is directly contradicted by data. As of August 2006, only about 26.5% of Indigenous peoples live in remote or very remote areas, and that proportion almost certainly has not increased since. (Table 4). In other words, your claim that the life expectancy gap is accounted for by the places in which Indigenous Australians live, is total and utter BS.

    And it is a significant gap. Search for Life Expectancy in the above linked document, and you'll find:
    So yes, this is something to take seriously.

    Obviously there are some indigenous people in places of power. The point is that they are under-represented. And again, this is not exactly disputed:

    From "Enhancing Aboriginal Political Representation", a NSW Government Report from 1998, Chapter 10.

    Again, a completely baseless claim, without any substantiation whatever. Do you KNOW that there is no racial bias in hiring procedures? Do you KNOW that it's not harder for Aboriginal people to access health services, or welfare, than for others? No, you don't. And there's a mountain of evidence that there is widespread racial discrimination in Australia. For example:

    These are reports from 1991, 1997 and 2000 respectively. So not exactly old or outdated material. From here.

    In fact, in Australia racial discrimination against Aboriginal people is institutionalized at the level of the LAW.

    Read more here.

    In fact, the Racial Discrimination Act had to be amended in order for the NT intervention act to be passed. In fact, a request for urgent action is currently being launched with the UN under the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms Racial Discrimination in relation to this matter.

    I have not suggested that there are no initiatives in place attempting to redress the imbalance between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians. I have argued that they have not succeeded yet.

    And again, why don't you do a minimum of fact checking before you post? ATSIC was abolished in 2005.

    Your claim here must be that the reasons for the underrepresentation of Indigenous Australians in places of power are that they are lazy and not willing to work for their own welfare. Again, in direct opposition to mountain of evidence to the contrary, which I cited above.

    Enough. I can't be arsed pounding home a message that is blindingly obvious any more: you got no basis for any of your bullshit claims, about this issue you're just ignorant.

    MATTATHOME: Issues of affirmative action are admittedly very complex, and it won't do any good going there here, that much is obvious. If you're actually interested in a serious discussion about the topic, pm me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2009
  12. Sumomaniac

    Sumomaniac Member

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    RE: Bleeding hearts foundation

    If you want change stop whinging on a internet forum and go do some volunteer work.
     
  13. Archades

    Archades Member

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    I'd love to see aboriginals in more power positions, a spread amongst various areas and over time this will happen and already has improved since the 19th and 20th centuries.

    As for health and their earlier deaths, what exactly is killing them off earlier, are the hospitals etc simply saying screw it we're not treating aboriginals today? do the aboriginals lack an immune system as diverse as ours due to our longer time with mixed cultures? (as in ye old standard white folks mixing throughout the millennium) Is it substance abuse killing them earlier?

    Are these failures strictly our fault, or is personal responsibility to blame. If we are failing them via giving less resources than others get than it should/will be changed for equality, but what are we to do if it's outside our control? Maybe some races naturally die earlier than others and that's the way life is intended.

    I said many, not all, maybe I should have said some? and the reason of remote living was a POSSIBILITY not a set in stone fact of why they die earlier, but living in the middle of nowhere pretty much will guarantee less access to health facilities vs someone in a city. Many people travel far for chemo/radiation therapy,etc and some I dare say would go without or with alot less than someone in a city could.

    My "baseless" claims were opinions I hold and still hold, I'll admit though if there is still racism within the law then yes that's oppression but I will still believe they have to take alot of personal responsibility in some issues like substance abuse etc.

    And sumomaniac I totally agree, it's easier to cry foul in your chair vs going out and actually making a change, lobbying for rights etc and trying to help others but I guess some just can't handle going that far.
     

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