[WIN10] Gone back to WIN 7

Discussion in 'Windows Operating Systems' started by Mathuisella, Apr 26, 2018.

?

All driver/game/compatability issues aside, which do you perfer 7 or 10

  1. Windows 7

    43.8%
  2. Windows 10

    56.3%
  1. PabloEscobar

    PabloEscobar Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    12,244
    That time is fast approaching.

    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/wi.../overview-of-threat-mitigations-in-windows-10

    You can say it all you like, but without any reasoning, examples or citations to back it up, It's hard to have a civil discussion about it. Just saying "That's the facts" doesn't make something a fact... That's the facts.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  2. flu!d

    flu!d Ubuntu Mate 16.04 LTS

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    11,839
    You vastly underestimate the bulk of the population using Windows in relation to computer literacy. Furthermore, the biggest problem with Windows is convenience - It has to be simple and convenient or the masses will not use it, AKA: Vista. That level of convenience is what makes the operating system insecure.

    Increase UAC, run a guest account = Decreased convenience and complaints.

    A central repository, done correctly, would rectify all of that overnight without the need for increased UAC and guest accounts and would actually be more convenient for the bulk of the Windows using population who are not enthusiasts or in any way computer literate.

    The methods used by Windows 10 to limit attack vectors are not stopping malware and PUP's, I get new clients every day with masses of infection and hard drive thrashing.
     
  3. Wolfje

    Wolfje Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Messages:
    932
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Eh, on paper I guess. You can look at a million CVE lists and think wow were screwed, but the reality is edge cases aside, the real world is a different story.

    I'm still getting asked by Microsoft to sacrifice some of my information to the Borg for Windows 10, and that makes me uncomfortable. Not because I'm a criminal, but because I paid for this shit, my computer is an academic and entertainment tool and I don't want to be advertised to, listened on or harvested.

    Can't deny that mate :thumbup:. While it isn't a kernel mode shitfest like XP, it'll start to go off and grow mould fairly quickly. I'll still use this time to sook about Microsoft's direction and cling to times of old like geriatric :thumbup:
     
    PabloEscobar likes this.
  4. PabloEscobar

    PabloEscobar Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    12,244
    https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/ne...n-the-play-store-just-by-changing-their-name/

    Them central repositories certainly know how to secure software that goes into them.

    What would your "done correctly" central repository include? how would it be different to the ones that exist now?
     
  5. flu!d

    flu!d Ubuntu Mate 16.04 LTS

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    11,839
    Do you have any idea regarding the ridiculous number of viruses/malware and PUP's there are under Windows? Furthermore, in this example the popularity of Windows doesn't mean a thing when Android is more popular than Windows. Your chances of getting any form of infection from the Play Store is effectively very low.

    So as stated, a central software repository done properly would defiantly be beneficial to Windows users, especially the unknowledgable masses the operating system is aimed at.

    Arguing freedom and Windows 10 in the same sentence just doesn't work.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
  6. PabloEscobar

    PabloEscobar Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    12,244
    I understand the threats facing the windows platform just fine, but nobody is claiming that all these programs are curated, which is the core difference between 'random msi' and 'app store'

    I asked what "done properly" means in terms of a central repository?

    Arguing Freedom and Central Repository in the same sentence just doesn't work.
     
    millsy_c and PersianImmortal like this.
  7. millsy_c

    millsy_c Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    12,282
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I never realised humans used the acronym PUP's before, had always assumed it was just like an AV thing that cbf properly categorising things.
     
  8. flu!d

    flu!d Ubuntu Mate 16.04 LTS

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    11,839
    Assume that done properly involves 'proper curation at the level of the Google Play Store or Apple's App store'. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that such a central repository would resolve the bulk of the undeniable cesspool that is Windows overnight. You can't really argue this point, it's futile. Having said that, from the end users perspective the inability to install win32 applications in favor of software from a central repository that's properly sandboxed in no way implies the loss of any form of freedom.

    Arguing freedom and Windows in the one sentence doesn't work, a central repository just adds to the eroding end user control under Windows while fixing a major hurdle to Windows adoption for the bulk of computer illiterate Windows users.

    Now you're just nitpicking and arguing for the sake of it, you're not going to change my opinion and nothing I have claimed is in any way incorrect.

    Most AV software will not pick up on PUP's, the reason is that it is actually illegal for them to do so as PUP's are malicious software installed, unintentionally, by the end user. Because the end user installed them it is illegal to flag them as malicious software. Something that could be resolved 100% with the use of a curated central software repository whereby it is against the rules to include manipulative tiny text, check boxes and delayed check boxes when installing software asking if you want to install the 'Ask' taskbar under Chrome, for example. One curated software package only to be installed per entry in the store.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  9. PabloEscobar

    PabloEscobar Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    12,244
    Proper curation is expensive... Which is why every just runs apps through a sandbox, and if they pass... into the store they go. I linked an article before mentioning how terrible Google are at identifying shit apps.

    Almost everything you have said, is opinion, which can't be incorrect, however you've made several claims of facts, and not backed them up with any citations, despite repeated requests to do so. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about anything, but I'd hope that other people (like me) make their decisions based on actual facts, backed by actual references on what is best for their situation.
     
    2SHY and millsy_c like this.
  10. flu!d

    flu!d Ubuntu Mate 16.04 LTS

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    11,839
    It works fine considering the Google Play store and the Apple App store, I'm sure the Microsoft Store is already curated. It's a moot point.

    Windows needs a central, curated, software repository, installing random legacy win32 .msi's from all over the internet is a fail in this modern age and one of the biggest issues with Windows from the perspective of the illiterate PC user is Viruses, malware and PUP's. Furthermore, no 'freedom' is lost to the enthusiast that isn't being slowly eroded away in the first place.

    I made a claim that Windows is a cesspool, it is. There is no disputing this fact unless you're suffering from some form of Stockholm Syndrome.
     
  11. flu!d

    flu!d Ubuntu Mate 16.04 LTS

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    11,839
    Now consider the fact that Android is the more popular OS compared to Windows, especially specifically Windows 10, and then consider the realistic number of infections affecting both platforms. I can assure you, no evidence needed to support such a claim as it's common sense, that the number of infections under Windows is through the absolute roof in direct comparison to Android.

    Hell, look at the percentages of infections via the Windows Store Vs some random, legacy win32 .msi off a site pretending to be Norton Antivirus (yes, one does exist and it's malicious).

    You're argument's a sinking ship and there's no evidence that freedoms will be lost simply by downloading from a central repository vs downloading random garbage from the internet. No one feels like their freedoms have been affected under iOS or Android, I know I certainly don't.
     
  12. PersianImmortal

    PersianImmortal Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    8,321
    Location:
    Canberra
    Sorry, no. Please stop with these generalities that really only apply to a subset of people like yourself. "No one feels like their freedoms have been affected under iOS or Android" ? Well call me no-one, because I can install Kodi on my Windows PC, I can install it on an Android TV, but due to the restrictions of the iOS app store, it's not available for my iPad. The Kodi developer I link to says "Yes we would like it in there [Apple app store], but on suitable terms."

    Let's also remember that jailbreaking is undertaken by people who specifically object to their freedoms being curtailed under iOS. Jailbreaking wouldn't exist if everyone was happy with the app store restrictions. So there goes that assertion.

    Just because most mobile device users have been conditioned to accept a walled garden, and just because you personally want to make your life easier in administering Windows PCs by having a default locked-down environment, doesn't mean it's a good idea for Windows or the PC platform.
     
  13. flu!d

    flu!d Ubuntu Mate 16.04 LTS

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    11,839
    Hence why I don't like iOS and avoid it like the plague. MacOS is headed the same way.

    Your freedoms are going the same way with Windows 10 and your operating system of choice as a service whether you like it or not. Something that actually works has to be done to stop the massive malware/virus issue under Windows 10 considering the computer illiterate. It's one of the reasons the masses flock to mobile devices in the first place as it's still far easier browsing the web on a desktop machine and it's definitely easier typing an email on a desktop machine, so people aren't dumping desktops for outright convenience.

    As an enthusiast, you're the minority to Microsoft.

    [EDIT]: I don't want anything in relation to administering Windows machines, I make a living out of Windows issues.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  14. millsy_c

    millsy_c Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    12,282
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I have nothing to add to this as you've added nothing new, just in case you're conflating my silence for conceding my point.
     
  15. flu!d

    flu!d Ubuntu Mate 16.04 LTS

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    11,839
    I don't really have an opinion of your silence, assuming that comment was directly aimed at myself. If you believe I've added nothing new, I agree. Hence the reason for my comment about arguing for the sake of arguing.

    The undeniable fact still remains that Windows has a massive virus/malware problem that apparent improvements in Windows 10 aren't resolving.
     
  16. PersianImmortal

    PersianImmortal Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    8,321
    Location:
    Canberra
    I'm still confused as to how we went from talking about the various failings of Windows 10 - reduction in user choice (less customization, forced updates), schizophrenic UI, monetization and privacy issues, etc. - to a circular debate about the apparently massive malware issue in Windows and... thus the need for a curated software repository? If that's what you're after, then I can't agree in any way, so like millsy I fall silent on this issue.
     
  17. PabloEscobar

    PabloEscobar Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    12,244
    It's not, because none of these stores are Curated well.

    A cursory google turns up a stack of articles outlining Malware present in all app stores, I'd make the case that this is objectively worse than the 'random.msi' problem, simply because users have been conditioned to believe that "appstore = safe"

    The whole Android mobile ecosystem is a shitstorm of vulnerable phones that will never be patched, add the fact that China-phones often come pre-loaded with malware, and it would take a very brave person to point to Android as a bastion of security and privacy.


    Agreed, However, I asked for a Citation of the "Fact" that Windows 10 was worse than Windows 7 when it comes to malware, Everything I've read (example linked previously), as well as anecdotally, indicates otherwise. I no longer do break/fix work for Home PC's, but Given that Win10 comes with Defender built in, and many of the XP/7 computers I used to see didn't have any AV on them at all, speaks for itself.


    Of everything you've said in this thread, I find this the most perplexing, especially as someone who seems to value their personal freedoms.

    https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/
    https://play.google.com/about/developer-content-policy
    https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/le...ore-policies#111-general-content-requirements
    https://developer.amazon.com/docs/policy-center/understanding-content-policy.html

    Kick back and have a read

    http://www.adriancourreges.com/blog/2016/05/19/getting-banned-from-google-play/

    So while you don't feel like your freedoms are affected under iOS or Android, there are other who are impacted.
     
  18. flu!d

    flu!d Ubuntu Mate 16.04 LTS

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    11,839
    Because certain users ignore reality and create unnecessary arguments that defy blatant logic and go round and round in circles in an attempt to justify their comfort zone.

    Reality = Windows has a massive infection issue.
    Logic = A correctly implemented central repository free from greed and overzealous control would resolve this issue with very little loss of freedom.

    Reality = Windows 10 has significant disadvantages compared to Windows 7 and appears to be getting worse as opposed to better when it comes to stripping end users of control.
    Logic = Vote with your wallet and tell MS you don't agree, submission will only make things worse.

    There's nothing wrong with such statements and they're in no way incorrect, they reflect reality. They also reflect the failings of Windows as a platform, just like your examples above.

    A confusing comment is the misinformed statement "The year of the Linux desktop".
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  19. flu!d

    flu!d Ubuntu Mate 16.04 LTS

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    11,839
    You just keep avoiding the point. They're far more curated than a random .msi based on legacy win32 code downloaded straight off the internet.

    I'm fairly certain I never claimed Windows 10 was any worse than Windows 7. I claimed that the increased security of Windows 10 isn't doing a lot to hold back the ocean of infection plaguing the Windows platform.

    To quote my last post as it highlights the point I've been making all along that you just can't help but miss each and every time:

    I download from software repositories (not the Ubuntu store) under Ubuntu all the time, my freedom is not compromised whatsoever and the method is undoubtedly more secure than downloading some random .msi off the internet provided you don't download from 'Tomz Leet Warez PPA'.

    You're so hell bent on proving me wrong you're not listening to the point I'm making. it's just an OS, don't defend Microsoft, they don't know you exist.
     
  20. PabloEscobar

    PabloEscobar Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2008
    Messages:
    12,244


    I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. Obviously any level of curation, is more than random.msi.


    Not in so many words.

    I'd like a source for this claim

    https://www.zdnet.com/article/windows-10-vs-windows-7-microsofts-newer-os-is-almost-twice-as-secure/
    https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/19/15665488/wannacry-windows-7-version-xp-patched-victim-statistics

    The above articles indicate to me that Windows 10 is doing a decent amount to hold back the ocean of infections.

    I've got no interest in proving anything, you've already demonstrated your mind is made up. My concern is that others will read your posts in this thread, and assume they are facts because you say they are, and be left with a somewhat incomplete view of the benefits they get, in exchange for the things that they give up, when moving to Windows 10.
     

Share This Page