[WIN10] Gone back to WIN 7

Discussion in 'Windows Operating Systems' started by Mathuisella, Apr 26, 2018.

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All driver/game/compatability issues aside, which do you perfer 7 or 10

  1. Windows 7

    44.9%
  2. Windows 10

    55.1%
  1. shane41

    shane41 Member

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    Consumers are lazy. Me included.
    Linux is not there yet ... but a free alternative mostly & some lite reading can do most of what we need. + it's not full of holes.
    My friend describes the Management Engine driver we install as a miniature Linux. That's a tiny OS hidden within another bloated OS.
    So there's your backdoor to anything the creators want to stealth inject.

    You all want security. Stay off the internet. :lol: Unplug your SSD's & take them with you.
     
    l_ QuadX_l and Zenskas like this.
  2. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    Really?

    What am I supposed to be missing out on? Apart from viruses, malware, PUPs and trojans.

    Yes we are, and globally Linux is the more popular OS considering computing and devices as a whole, even Microsoft use it for the cloud based solution that now makes them more revenue than Windows. Microsoft have slashed their Windows division, Edge is becoming reskinned Chrome and judging by the number of update issues it's obvious Microsoft don't really care for the OS market anymore - They just want a product that props up their cloud division.

    I see no evidence that Windows is the future of computing, if it wasn't force installed on OEM products by default it would have died years ago.

    From my perspective it appears with every update that Microsoft want people to abandon the desktop for mobile, as that's the direction their OS is headed. In comparison awareness of Linux on the desktop is growing all the time and what Valve are doing for gaming under Linux is nothing short of remarkable.

    It's indesputable that Linux has a massive role to play in the future of computing and tech devices, a far bigger role than Windows.

    I work on Windows machines, the issues related to the OS makes me good money - I have no problem with learning new things.

    I have a problem with a desktop OS mishmashed with a touch UI that has no place on the desktop, especially when it's becoming apparent with every update that the touch UI is taking preference over the desktop UI. A great many people navigate Windows out of sufferance - But, it's installed on the device out of the box so ho hum.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  3. PersianImmortal

    PersianImmortal Member

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    Ok. Who’s “force installing” Windows? Are you perhaps confusing the very valid fact that retailers and hardware manufacturers have commercial incentives to install it on OEM systems with some kind of dark conspiracy theory? This is the way the world works.

    Secondly, who said Windows is the future of computing? I said an operating system like iOS would be the probable victor, because of the move to mobile self-maintaining systems. The data certainly supports this; higher revenues beat greater popularity. We’ve already discussed examples of very popular and/or technically superior OSes that have failed - because of commercial viability issues.
     
  4. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    When the OS is installed on the device due to no conscious decision on behalf of the consumer, the OS is force installed - That is the sole reason for the popularity of Windows over Linux. To put things another way, you act like Windows is the more popular desktop OS because it's the better OS, this is not the case. The popularity Windows enjoys over Linux is 100% the fact that Windows is on the device when you buy it, a situation that's further monopolized by virtue of the fact that Microsoft tend to target devices that are cheaper than their Apple alternatives - Naturally this is not the case with Linux. The PC and it's associated UEFI is a fairly open architecture, it's not designed to be limited to just Windows as an OS.

    Until such time as we get a realistic and widely available choice when it comes to the OS installed on our devices, this is a situation that isn't going to change regarding desktop computing. Unless the greed of Microsoft makes a mess of things.

    As for your comments regarding iOS, it will never happen. Firstly, iOS isn't flexible enough, it's a stripped down app launcher. Secondly, iOS incurs a licensing fee, no one's going to pay licensing for an OS to run an IoT device or even a vehicle when Linux has been doing the same job for decades with no licensing and with absolute reliability. When it comes to electronics requiring a simple OS to run, Linux owns the market - This isn't like the early days of IBM vs Microsoft where two competing operating systems are struggling to scratch a market; Linux and the Linux kernel literally owns consumer electronics and computing as a whole while Windows owns desktop computing due to the fact it's on the device when you buy it as a result of decades of clever marketing deals (commercial incentives, as you put it, on behalf of greed driven capitalist USA. There is nothing to state that the way the United States of Stupid wants the globe to run is the way the globe 'has' to run). From a commercial viability perspective, Linux is literally the Dogs nuts.

    If you care to expand the concept of 'desktop computing', literally all external peripherals run some form of Linux as an OS and in many cases even Linux file systems, peripherals that make up the desktop category every bit as much as the PC itself.

    You cannot argue that there's no point learning Linux as it may not take off, when Linux already owns the market, you point is moot and quite silly. Especially when Android owns the mobile market by a country mile and Android is based on Linux.

    It's almost like people that don't know a lot about Linux try to come up with excuses why they shouldn't run Linux, and nine times out of ten their irrational excuses are baseless while millions of people run desktop Linux daily just fine, including myself.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  5. PersianImmortal

    PersianImmortal Member

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    That isn't an explanation. You're simply reiterating that Windows is somehow "force installed", but not explaining why or how this is being done. Why aren't hardware manufacturers and retailers not choosing Linux for their default OS on PCs? Hint: commercial factors.

    The rest of your point seems to completely ignore (a) the move to mobile computing, and (b) the fact that a Linux kernel is being used for certain functionality is not the same as the end user needing to learn how to use Linux.
     
  6. shredder

    shredder Member

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    The "commercial factors" branch of the discussion is cyclical. It's already been mentioned that Linux is neither a focused entity nor a commercial one.

    Nor did it even exist when Microsoft had already co-opted all the major OEMs into shipping PCs with their operating systems, and become one of the largest companies on the planet bar none.

    "Commercial factors", absolutely, but "proportional merit"?... hmmm.

    That argument amounts to a simple "Might Makes Right".
    The move to mobile computing, aka Android (by far most prominently), which is for all intents and purposes a Linux operating system, aka a GUI built on top of the Linux kernel. Everybody who uses an Android phone has "learned Linux" - again, for all intents and purposes. The idea that doing so involved major upheaval to the point of unviability, is a conceit of your own making. It's already happened, and it didn't.
     
  7. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    To quote myself:

    As for this comment:

    To quote myself:

    And your point:

    Reinforces my point above about Apple users spending money unnecessarily. There's nothing to state that 'piracy' has anything to do with the fact that software developers know that Apple users pay stupid amounts of money for software - Their desktop platform is no different, rarely is software free under MacOS, quite often needing to be repurchased with every major operating system update. For the record, I also use MacOS due to the fact I repair Macs.

    Linux is not going anywhere, in fact it's only getting stronger. Windows on the other hand I can see shifting to a nix based kernel as the NT kernel has seen better days.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  8. PersianImmortal

    PersianImmortal Member

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    Ok let's leave it at that. I definitely don't agree with any of what you just posted, but we're just spinning our wheels now and not getting anywhere with this.
     
  9. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    You honestly believe that Linux is just going to disappear while iOS takes over the globe...

    ..I agree, this conversation is retarded.
     
  10. Perko

    Perko Member

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    Most people who aren't here primarily as enthusiasts work on Windows machines. I have Windows, Linux and Apple machines that I've put into service for people and I don't have many issues with one over the other. For every desktop OS that borks with one OS there are roughly proportional instances of the other two. Desktop Linux /= server Linux. There are plenty of issues that a user facing install of Ubuntu or whatever can have that a server install of Linux won't have.

    It's used on touch devices a lot though,

    Given where we were at when Windows 8 released vs now, it's not as bad as it was.

    And as has been discussed ad nauseam across the forums for years, all UI is shit, and subjective reliant on familiarity.

    If you can't grasp context, everyone will think you're straw-manning.
     
  11. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    "If I can't grasp context?!"

    Linux is the most popular OS globally, Windows is the most popular desktop OS due to the fact it's already on the device when you buy it - Although Linux and it's file systems are used in many forms of 'desktop peripherals', Android is globally the most popular OS, Apple users waste money like it's water - This is a fairly commonly known fact and there is absolutely no bloody way iOS is ever going to replace Linux considering the many, many instances it is used in computing and electronics!

    Microsoft are now making more revenue out of Linux than Windows, and Edge is becoming no more than skinned Chrome.

    What 'context' aren't I grasping here? There is a strawman argument, and it's certainly not mine.

    Furthermore, people switch to touch devices to escape Windows, the last thing they want is a Windows based mobile device - Hence the reason for Microsoft's rubbish sales in relation to mobile devices, and the most popular mobile OS by a literal country mile is Android. The touch UI is not needed on the desktop.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  12. Perko

    Perko Member

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    The context where PI mentioned iOS-like operating systems most likely being the future over full-fat desktop interfaces, and you draw the inference that he means that Linux will disappear and argue against that.
    It's a matter of the form factor, not the specific OS. You only have to look at shipment data to see that he's right.

    I think you give users far more credit than they deserve, and besides, the Surface line and other vendors' lines of laptop/tablet crossovers are very popular on Windows. The lines are blurred, no matter how you look at it. It's not about Windows Mobile or Phone any more, (and this thread isn't about those two, Linux, MacOS, iOS, OS/2, Solaris, DOS, or whatever else you feel like drawing in), so stop making it about that.
     
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  13. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    And it's not going to happen because iOS type mobile operating systems are far too limiting, some things are performed with a magnitude more efficiency on a desktop. Hence the reason why the touch UI under Windows 10 has no place on a desktop.

    Actually, the Surface range of products aren't popular at all. They're fragile, they lack connectivity, they're almost impossible to repair, they're expensive and the mishmash UI once again doesn't work effectively under all scenarios on a touch device. Microsoft are trying to claim they own the mobile market with 2in1's, but a 2in1 is not a 'mobile device', it's a laptop with a 360 degree hinge on the keyboard.

    The lines are very clear unless you're Microsoft's marketing department. Tablet design with a virtual keyboard and no attached keyboard is mobile, and Android own the mobile market as the most popular OS globally.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  14. Kafoopsy

    Kafoopsy Member

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    This is it. And I am one of them. I am quite happy with the classic Windows theme and Windows 7 is the latest OS that allows me to use it. I really think that the vast majority of people just don't want the UI to change.

    This is also it. The sole underlying issue is that the average person doesn't want a new UI.
     
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  15. Perko

    Perko Member

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    You can't see past your nose. Apple could relatively easily put iOS on their Mac lines and other than the OS desktop, you'd never know.

    From a user perspective, an OS is a means to access applications, Microsoft have certainly forgotten this in recent times with the insane amount of bloat that they ship with it, but being a *nix fan, I'd have thought you wouldn't share their view.

    I see you cut the bit of my quote that said look at shipments, the growth and shrinkage rates for each market disproves your point. 2 in 1s are growing, and desktops and laptops are shrinking.

    Users don't care how you want to segment things to suit your arguments. Most 2 in 1s are mobile Windows touch devices. A lot of desktops have touch screens too. Why wouldn't they focus their current UI design on a hybrid model? My issue is with their internal politics. Why don't they give users and vendors different desktop skins to use to suit their use case? Why do they preload Pro, Enterprise and even Server with shitty apps and telemetry? Why can't we have an LTSC style SKU that behaves more like traditional Windows, with security patching, silicon updates etc but not the cruft of the SAC versions?
     
  16. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    Well they could.

    And their new Mac lineup of desktop uselessness would still not overtake Linux as an OS, there is no way iOS for the desktop would be accepted by the Mac community. IOS is an app launcher, you need a little more than an app launcher for a desktop and MacOS is essentially iOS for the desktop, however if you need to do anything advanced, the terminal is as necessary as it is under Linux.

    No, you see you deliberately missed my point and your point about shipments, apparent growth and shrinkage was moot once you really consider what, exactly, a mobile device really is. 2in1's are not mobile devices unless you work in Microsoft's dreamland marketing department. 2in1's 'are' laptops, they are a laptop with a touchscreen few use and a 360 degree hinge few use, people buy them because they're being flogged off for cheap in comparison to fully fledged laptops designed to do real work, and in many cases people regret buying them.

    There is no doubt desktop is shrinking as the average user gets tired of all the issues surrounding Windows and shifts to more reliable Android based devices, but the desktop is still very much necessary as many tasks are still done with a magnitude more efficiency on the desktop with a real desktop OS. The point about Microsoft offering a Windows 7 theme thus attracting their market back to Windows wouldn't have the effect you assume it would. You see, it's not just the UI and it's not just the updater and it's not just the privacy issues and it's not just the lack of control - It's the absolute ocean of viruses, malware, PUP's, trojan's, keyloggers and cryptolockers - Very real issues that are costing the less tech savvy that make up the bulk of the Windows user base tens of thousands in lost money never to be recovered due to the ageing operating system itself struggling with the magnitude of security issues in a connected age. People can switch to Android, which is globally the most popular OS and based on Linux, and comparatively experience none of these issues in direct comparison to the Windows platform. Essentially, people have lost trust in Windows - As a direct result of 12 million malware strains a month back in 2016 that forced updates are failing to contain. Change whatever you want, these people aren't coming back.

    So they can fool people like yourself by making you believe they own the mobile market as a result of selling laptops with attached keyboards, touch screens no one uses, and 360 degree hinges running a mishmash OS that's capable of both touch and desktop but compromising at both and therefore excelling at neither. Touch screens are not necessary on desktops when you have the use of a superior mouse and keyboard and the touch interface on a 'mobile' device (a Microsoft device that lacks a connected keyboard and makes use of a virtual on screen keyboard) isn't ideal considering purely touch application.

    Because Microsoft don't care, they make little out of Windows nowadays, the NT kernel and associated Windows file systems are suffering performance issues and the scheduler sucks. People are dumping the idea of a single Windows Server always running with Domain Controller roles and Active Directory roles and almost every other role associated with such application, that's in many cases a single source of massive network failure in the event of an issue, and as overused as Excel in scenario's it was never intended for (as in an office with 20 PC's or less) for the cloud. Microsoft now make far more money from the cloud than they do in Windows sales and Microsoft's cloud based solution runs solely on Linux.

    In time, Windows will be limited to propping up Microsoft's cloud based division and you will pay a subscription for the ability to use many features that used to be performed locally. Microsoft cannot continue to keep giving operating systems away for nix (pun intended, as eventually the NT kernel is going to have to be replaced, as well as the ageing file system and the most logical progression is a nix based kernel and file system).

    The idea that touch operating systems are the future is limited to dreamland Hollywood movies and in no way practical or efficient considering real life. Linux is entrenched in computing and electronics, it's a proven platform that's not going anywhere.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  17. MUTMAN

    MUTMAN Member

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    I get to reset a few android tablets each year. People at work have teenage sons and teenage sons tend to click on things they shouldn't....

    Android certainly isnt immune to crypto style lockouts
     
  18. Perko

    Perko Member

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    Operating systems are primarily app launchers. What do you think the Linux terminal does exactly? Do you think that all of those commands are "Linux commands", or maybe BASH calling apps?

    The whole concept of Linux is small apps doing one thing and doing it well, (systemd aside), based around the kernel. What you appear to be advocating is closer to what Windows is becoming, bloated crufty OS trying to be everything to everyone.

    Laptops are mobile devices. What are you on about? Just because they're x86 based doesn't change their form or function. What you say about buyer's remorse is just another one of your anecdotes passing as data.

    More of your conjecture masquerading as fact.

    Like I said before, UI IS NOT OBJECTIVE. Your rant there is the same as everyone in this thread complaining about it. If a touch UI is not at least as easy to navigate with a mouse as it is with a fat finger, the user needs to be checked for signs of stroke.

    I said what MS's motivations are. Stated motivations. And I'm suddenly defending them and drinking kool-aid despite my criticisms of them.

    Like I also said before, you need the calm down and read what people are actually writing, rather than seeing everything in the perpetual victim/attacked mentality of the average Ubuntu user. Right now you're just derailing any Windows thread you can get your hands on.

    Conjecture quoted for posterity I guess.

    No one said touch specifically, I believe PI said automagical. AI will play a role in the sort of stuff he's alluding to.

    No one said anything about the Linux kernel disappearing either, that's another argument that no one made that you're railing against.

    Yep, same with every OS. Flu!d appears to think that users have a clue what they're doing. Most of the ones that moved exclusively to tablets and phones did so because their desktop or laptop sat around gathering dust for years so they didn't replace it. Nothing to do with Windows, everything to do with their usage habits and requirements.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  19. shane41

    shane41 Member

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    I'm going to bust out that movie " he said she said " :rolleyes: Wasting precious time on typing all this shit. Just agree you have your own views.
     
  20. flu!d

    flu!d KDE Neon 5.16

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    Real operating systems allow for the opening of more than one 'app' at a time without putting 'apps' into suspend mode when not in focus. For instance, under Android I can run more than one application at a time with each app in it's own resizable, fully floating window.

    IOS is an app launcher, it's far too simplistic and far too limiting for anything productive.

    It's UI made for fat fingers and as a result I can't fit as much on the screen, scrolling through options is vastly limited compared to an OS designed primarily for desktop use. Once again, the touch UI has no place on the desktop. Windows 10 is an OS trying to cater for everything while excelling at nothing.

    It's obvious what Microsoft's intentions are. To falsely claim they own the mobile space as a result of devices that aren't mobile devices using an OS that's a mishmash of touch and desktop. They also want to limit the end user of control, lock you into their 'ecosystem' and eventually push users into a position whereby Microsoft can actually start making revenue out of operating systems again.

    Problem is...People are tiring of Windows as an OS.

    Actually I'm really not. What I'm essentially doing is highlighting that the average Windows user is full of misconceptions, generalizations and fear. Windows users seem to be comfortable to keep plugging along with garbage purely out of blind fear of change and the possibility of learning something new. I wasn't the one that derailed this thread.

    Is that the same 'AI' that handles your Windows updates? It's not working too well.

    I see absolutely no reason whatsoever why Linux can't be the future of AI, as it is it controls the worlds supercomputers with an NUMA implementation and a scheduler that runs rings around Windows and the NT kernel. I highly doubt iOS will have anything to do with AI due to it's obvious limitations.

    Well my wife rolls her eyes at most of the comments here stating "it's not that damn hard to use" and my 9yo daughter installed Discord on my Linux based PC just fine without using any 'software center'. Refer to my statement above about Windows users, misconceptions and gross generalizations.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019

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