Google Stadia (formerly Project Stream)

Discussion in 'PC Games' started by power, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Funny, I remember my parents telling me the same thing about Rage and MTV.

    And I remember my dad telling me that his parents thought The Beatles were the devil's music, and would turn kids crazy.

    And how does that change anything? You as a consumer have enormous choice regardless of what people buying the same sports/wrestling/COD games bumped every year are doing. In fact, you have more choice today than ever in gaming history!

    Nonsense. Indies are indies precisely because they don't want to act like the corporate behemoths.

    You, sir, are Chicken Little. The sky is not falling.

    By all means, direct your anger at those who deserve it. Spraying blanket statements on forums *is not* directed anger.

    Sales figures say otherwise. Physical media is seeing a sales resurgence by a new generation of kids who don't like the idea of paying money endlessly to own nothing. The sales data speaks for itself.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  2. flu!d

    flu!d Never perfect, always genuine

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    The biggest problem is: This is Google, they struggle with commitment. There's every chance this flame could burn out as fast as it was lit.

    I hope it doesn't, but I guess we'll wait and see.

    The other problem is the number of streaming services is out of control. They seem cheap isolated on their own, it's once you realize you need half a dozen in order to satisfy all your consumption requirements that things become expensive in a world where it's becoming too expensive to simply 'live'.
     
  3. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

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    The other thing that will hold Stadia back in a big way is emerging markets. Emerging markets aren't ready for Stadia at all. Stadia is a premium price proposition.
     
  4. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    PSA / reality check: this is not a need, and we don't "require" anything related to video games. It's 100% want.

    Beyond that, there is no single gaming platform on planet Earth that has every game. And the only time there was, was when there was exactly one video game in existence. The second video game created platform diversity, and it's gone up from there.

    I repeat: Stadia is not signalling the end of days. Nor are they the harbingers of doom for physical media. And while established console manufacturers are dabbling in streaming, let us not forget they also dabbled in camera based motion tracking, physical "WiiMote" style waggle devices, this fucking thing (I bought one when Jaycar were selling them off at $10 a pop), that fucking thing, and a bunch of other fucking stupid things. None of them destroyed "traditional gaming".

    Today, we've also got VR. Far less stupid, but even so it's not "killing traditional gaming". It can happily co-exist in an ecosystem that's fucking enormous.

    And let us not forget, that the very first instance of "pay to play, and never own" were arcades. Look how well they did in the long run, particularly in the west.

    Google aren't hiding behind in our cupboards, ready to run off with our PCs and consoles in the dead of the night. They are zero threat to our gaming ways, regardless of their success or failure.
     
  5. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    To be fair, PC gaming has done a pretty good job of having almost everything, either through it being native, or emulation.

    No, we don't currently have PS5 or Xbox One emulation, but we have everything else, and we will have those two soon enough.

    Google Stadia is the start of something that can't be emulated, which can potentially mean games that are lost forever when they get too old or Google Stadia shuts down.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  6. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

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    yeah once they are all streamed who can archive them for the future? It won't be Google that's for sure.
     
  7. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Not even close. I can list for you thousands of games that will not run on even the best modern PC, either well enough to play, or at all (including ones lost to time). And they're the ones we know about (here's a tiny percentage of that list). There's likely even more we don't even know we lost.

    Assuming Google Stadia shut down tomorrow, the problem you're describing already exists in huge numbers, and continues to exist with or without Google.

    We already have that problem with, quite literally, thousands of video games. Google sure as hell didn't start it.

    Outside of playing games, my biggest hobby is software preservation. The miniscule handful of titles on Stadia aren't even close to the world's biggest problem when it comes to games no longer being available. I have in my personal collection games and software that, prior to me uploading them, were non-existent and completely undocumented on the Internet. And my collection is tiny compared to some folks out there who hoard this stuff - some who are hell bent on intentionally keeping those games out of the public sphere (a prominent NES game recently went for over $150K at auction to an a Japanese who just wanted to prevent western emulator users from ever seeing it).

    You think that because the NES version of Super Mario Bros is online that the problem doesn't exist? Not even close.

    Beyond that, the mighty PC isn't without sin either. We have hundreds of games where only the client-side code lives on our PCs, and the server side code is missing entirely from public archive. MMOs, Battle Royale FPS, etc. These all die the moment the servers get turned off, no matter how good your emulation is at a later date.

    I repeat - this problem isn't new, and Google are absolutely not (in your words) "the start of something that can't be emulated". This problem is why places like GameHistory.org exist (also folks like these here on local soil, as well as brilliant technical people like this). If you do genuinely care about the problem, you need to do more than yell at Google on a forum about it. And if you are serious about it, I'll help you in any way I can, because I am definitely serious about it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  8. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    Yes but people that had those real consoles at that time, also generally couldn't play those super rare games.

    In fact, emulation has meant that we could play a lot of the rare games around that the majority of the population never had a chance to play.

    With emulation if there is demand, it will generally happen.

    We've never had the same problem.

    Rare things are rare, thats not new information.

    Also the idea that old games would need to be preserved is a much newer concept, and a lot more practical with modern computers.

    We are so interested in preservation these days that we will backup online sources even if they have no sign of shutting down.

    We even capture packets from online gaming services just in case they get shutdown, so server emulators can be created if it gets shutdown. (see the Wii for example)

    This is solved by capturing the game packets and creating a server emulator. This only happens if there is demand due to difficulty, but this is exactly what happens and the fact is, its possible, where Stadia is not.


    Google Stadia is the first time it has nothing to do with if people can or want to do it, its simply impossible.


    I'll also point out something you seem to be missing

    The popularity and want for everyone to play a particular game is much more important to the general population then some super rare game nobody has heard of, and almost nobody wants to play.

    Having said that, I fully support old game preservation but I see it as a completely different issue to Google Stadia.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  9. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Wrong. There are already countless examples of games that we've lost permanently, and are now impossible to preserve. There already exist online only games that can only be partially persevered. This simply is not a new problem.

    Again so utterly wrong. For starters, it's subjective (people differ in opinion, and opinion even changes dramatically over time). Secondly, you cannot measure value in popularity.

    I call it "the McDonald's effect". By the numbers, there are far more people playing Candy Crush today than, say, ever played Half Life. By your logic, Candy Crush is "more valuable" because it has a bigger audience.

    This is not at all the role of perseveration. Regardless of personal or mass opinion, now, then or at any time, the goal is to preserve. Without judgement, and with the biggest goal being accuracy.

    Digital perseveration is an entire industry with many organisations and individuals taking part. They will repeat what I've said here. If you do genuinely care about the topic, is suggest some reading before putting words in their mouths.

    I am no fan of any service that puts perseveration at risk. But claiming Google are the first is patently wrong, and blaming them for the huge problem of sustainable income generation in the entertainment industry is nothing but impotent, misplaced rage. This has been coming for a long time, because the ratios of human labor to viable income in all entertainment industries have been blowing out consistently, year on year.

    I say the same thing to you that I do to everyone who spits venom about this: quit your job, make games, and release them physically. Try it. See how long you last. People did it from their bedrooms and garages in the 80s. Must be simple, right?
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  10. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    You seem to fail understand the point.

    There is a huge difference between possible, and impossible.


    Those games we've lost permanently could have been preserved, they were not because people failed to do it.

    It is impossible to preserve a Google Stadia game.

    The more people that like something, the more popular it is. Thats not subjective, thats facts.

    I don't like candy crush but that is correct.

    The problem is though that I doubt those people actually want it preserved, but if they did, then yes.

    We are not playing the role "preservation". Its a simple discussion on if its possible to preserve something, or not.



    I think its a bit of a joke you are comparing something like Elder Scrolls 6 being unable to be played 10 years later and a huge gaming population wanting to play it, despite insane amounts of people wanting to preserve it, but unfortunately its impossible.

    And some old games that nobody bothered to preserve, even though they could have.

    I get that you are passionate about preservation and thats great, but you are comparing two different things.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  11. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Good lord. There a many that couldn't.

    With older games, there were some that were rolled out especially for events. You could play them only at the event, and then the vendor took them away. Like Stadia, only the vendor has a copy, and only the vendor can preserve it. If you argue that these can be preserved because at some point it was physical, the same applies to Stadia, because at some point there are code and assets being used, loaded from a hard disk, that can be copied. In both cases, it's up to the vendor to preserve it, or someone to leak/steal it.

    In newer games, there's a client/server aspect. Sometimes the server side can't be preserved, and the game is useless without it. This has already happened, and titles have already been lost add they were impossible to preserve fully.

    That was a response to your "rarity/want" comments. If that's not valid, then neither are comments like yours on whether or not people subjectivity want the games preserved.

    You seem to have been born in the 90s and have zero concept of video game history.
     
  12. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    Yes like Donkey Kong Country Competition.

    But realistically these games are just existing games with small modifications.

    Not the same as an entire video game.

    All client/server games can be preserved given enough effort, the problem is that these MMO's are generally closing due to lack of interest, so there is a lack of interest in putting in the effort.

    But client/server games still get private emulators for them anyway, it really depends on demand. Remember the entire Wii multiplayer system has been emulated.

    I am simply disagreeing with your comparison that an old game that nobody bothered to preserve is the same as an entire game being lost because it was impossible.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  13. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    There are a handful of titles that were entirely unique. Currently all bar one of Google Stadia's games exist on other systems.

    All Google Stadia games can be preserved "with enough effort". It's on a hard disk somewhere, just like any client/server game where the server side code is the missing part.

    Thus far, for every argument you've given about Stadia's uniqueness, there exists an identical case in history.

    I'm simply disagreeing that Google Stadia is the first instance of game perseveration difficulties. Because every time you say "it's the first", I can demonstrate one earlier instance.

    You are free to dislike Stadia. I dislike Stadia. But I'm not going to make up things about it to try and rally an angry mob.
     
  14. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    Correct, my comments are more about game streaming/stadia in the future and where it can go, rather then worrying about a particular game right now.

    Completely wrong

    The game data is not accessible to anyone, so even if the entire country of Australia wanted to preserve it, we could not.

    You can't capture the network packets as you do with other games as Stadia is essentially a live video.

    I hope you aren't suggesting we do something illegal like break into the data centre and steal the servers, because thats not only silly but not at all the same.

    No its not the first instance of game preservation difficulties.

    It is the first instance of a game preservation impossibility.

    I don't actually dislike Stadia, I'm eager to try it.

    I don't see myself paying for it though.
     
  15. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    How does one capture server side code that doesn't exist on a client-only install?

    Not network packet capture. Binary software.

    This is precisely the lengths people have had to go to in order to preserve certain games.
     
  16. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    You don't need to.

    Once you capture the network traffic, you know what responses the client is expecting for gameplay, then you build a server emulator to make the responses the game is expecting.

    See here for an example https://gbatemp.net/threads/save-ni...e-online-servers-for-wii-and-ds-games.362716/
     
  17. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    This is not perseveration. This is simulation.

    You've proven a concerning lack of understanding on both perseveration and game history now. I don't really know what to say, other than to let you catch up on 30 years of both. Maybe we can have a sensible chat again in 2050.
     
  18. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    Making a game continue to work through a server emulator is preservation.

    If you want to call it something else, you are very welcome to.

    The point is, you are still wrong, you can't preserve Google Stadia games.
     
  19. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    You just changed the argument, how convenient. :) You said previously that this was *the first* instance of being impossible to preserve (even with your terrible definitions of preservation, which nobody involved in actual preservation agrees on, but let's play devil's advocate for fun because right now you arguing your terrible point are boring).

    2010, 10 years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnLive
    2012, 8 years ago:: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaikai

    *Exactly* what Google are doing. 100% streamed, no client side code. Identical service, identical business model. A decade or so ago. Is Stadia still "the first"?

    I wonder what new caveat or incorrect definition of established standards you'll invent this time?
     
  20. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    You are almost completely correct, except that neither of those services had exclusives games, so there are no games that are impossible to preserve.

    Nearly though!
     

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