Google Stadia (formerly Project Stream)

Discussion in 'PC Games' started by power, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. RnR

    RnR Member

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    From reddit...

    So it seems that the controller and the chromecast are a bit iffy... but everything is fine on laptops/pc via browser.

    I'm looking forward to this when it comes to Australia.

    #StadiaMasterRace
     
  2. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I fully expected that. Unlike almost anything we've had in consumer land before (with perhaps the exception of OnLive that started back in 2003!, which I don't think was available outside of the US), this is far less dependent on stuff you can buy and plonk in your house, and way more dependent on your ISP. For example:

    This sort of thing is everywhere - bandwidth is (almost) irrelevant. If your ISP can't get the latencies down, it's going to suck for you.

    Stadia have their ISP test, but as others have pointed out it's critically missing the latency ratings. Netflix have been naming and shaming ISPs for years (although again, ignoring latency).

    I almost take some sick glee in this - Australian Internet has sucked forever. I don't need to explain that to anyone on OCAU (with one glaring exception who works for a certain infrastructure provider and dogmatically can't see the difference between what he does day to day and our larger political problems, but I digress). This process is going to put the microscope back on Internet access providers - especially ones who over provision - to get their shit together.

    Netflix and co are purely bandwidth limited, and latency is almost a non issue thanks to buffering. Gaming is clearly a step further, and our ISPs are going to find pretty quickly that a whole new generation of people are going to understand latency vs bandwidth, which could be very problematic for marketing departments everywhere.
     
  3. OP
    OP
    power

    power Member

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    yes but google are in a chicken and egg race here. if the infrastructure isn't up to snuff there needs to be enough demand for the service to force them to act.

    Sony already tried, and capitulated to allow local downloads. GeForce now is already doing it. It's going to be a right time, right product moment - and I still maintain that Google have neither in their favour. It is not the right time, and this is definitely not an attractive product.

    Hell it wouldn't even pass the video test and that takes latency out of the picture.

    Imagine a subscription video service that you need to buy every piece of content on.....
     
  4. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    s/Google/Netflix and you've got every single forum rant about streaming video from 10 years ago.

    Remember the whole debacle about download caps and Netflix not wanting to put CDN cache nodes in ISPs to get speeds up and getting shitty at Australian ISPs for being lame? Anyone? Or have we all forgotten? Netflix even said they regretted some of their early decisions because it let Aussie ISPs be "lazy for longer" (their words).

    Same shit, different day.
     
  5. mesaoz

    mesaoz Member

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    Not sure about drawing a direct line from netflix to video game streaming... one is passively experienced and the other is not only directly interacted with but it's interacted with in a way that requires close to instant response in more use cases than not.

    I have no doubt that it will get better, but it's still a strange comparison.
     
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  6. OP
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    power

    power Member

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    streaming video had an issue with bandwidth, this is an issue of latency now that the bandwidth is there. low latencty links have always been a challenge though and usually overcoming them doesn't involve fatter pipes most people use other technologies on the links to sort things.
     
  7. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I'm not suggesting they're the exact same technical level problem. But I am suggesting they went through the same sorts of business and growth problems, where their service relied on highly variable external infrastructure, and it took a long time for things to settle to the point where factors outside of their control reached a consistent minimum standard.

    For Netflix, that was bandwidth. And while YouTube and co existed before hand, Netflix pushed streaming video to (a) long form, and (b) domestic TVs (i.e.: non-nerds). Prior to that, "bandwidth" mattered relatively little to the masses (again, regular non-nerds).

    Gaming's interactivity is clearly more about latency. That's well established. Traditional online multi-player gaming can mask the hidden pitfalls of latency because the engine can buffer and mask and replay things in a way that minimises the effect greatly. Now, with the whole thing being remote and none of those tricks available, the masses will see that limit more quickly than before.

    So, getting out of the weeds and talking business, yes there's a direct line. Every drama and fight and screaming-at-ISPs crap that Netflix had to do for an eon, Google will now have to do. They're going to go through the same fight to point out to ISPs why over contention and link quality and local hosting and all that other crap matters. Just this time the discussion will be more about latency, and less about bandwidth.

    At the human/business level, it's exactly the same issue. The tech in the customer's house is ready. The tech in the data centre is ready. The link between them isn't.

    We nerds love to get caught down in the intricate technical details (I do - it's fun). But as always it's rarely truly tech that's at fault. Planet Earth has the technology needed to make this work RIGHT NOW. All that's needed is for ISPs to care and offer the particular subscriptions and contention levels to ensure there is consistently enough supply to meet demand. And no, I'm not "blaming" ISPs here - that shit cost money. But the tech exists, so the trick from here is to find a way to make it all affordable and reasonable, especially in a country as challenging as Australia with our whopping long distances from everything.

    Again, all exactly what Netflix went through. And it took years, because after a while "Netflix capable" became a selling point of ISPs due to customer demand. Whether it's Google or Microsoft or any other vendor, streaming gaming *will* happen at some point, and an ISP advertising minimum guaranteed latency results for a particular platform *will* be a selling point one day in the future (just like "minimum nightly bandwidth" is here today, and wasn't even a talking point for non-nerds 5 years ago). The only question is "when?".
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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  8. OP
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    power

    power Member

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    I said the below earlier in the thread and I think it holds, someone at Google is living in a bubble. The when is simple, it's not now - that's why Microsoft, Sony and nVidia have taken the approaches they have. Also Google's pricing model is a complte

     
  9. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    This is absolutely a big corporate problem. Microsoft suffered from it bad in the Ballmer era, but appear to have snapped out of it.

    From what I hear from friends employed by the big G, it's been a real problem for a while there. Certain groups within are attempting to solve it, but that sort of thing needs top-down momentum.

    Hell, my last job for a not very big company had the same problems. Too many people not looking outside of their own back yard, and ignoring solutions and ideas from elsewhere. "Not Invented Here Syndrome".
     
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  10. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    I also feel like so many companies are constantly trying to be the first big player in each new market, even consumers won't be interested/ready for years. This is simply because of the obvious, if you capture a big portion of the market its much easier to keep ahead of your competitors and keep your customer base.

    It could definitely pay off if they are willing to continually innovate until people are ready to use cloud gaming.
     
  11. munchkin1

    munchkin1 Member

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    I haven't tried it myself, but it appears that 4k 60fps was basically a lie, at least in the case of red dead 2?

    Seeing some analysis on youtube, '4k 60fps' red dead is actually 1440p 30fps with gimped graphics settings and the graphics is further gimped by video compression? Running approx. medium-high PC settings.
    I had actually considered buying this just for the sake of work travel - often have 4k tv in hotel rooms and my laptop with gtx1060 isn't enough to play stuff from bed/couch with a controller. But coupling hotel internet with lower-than-console graphics, I'll stick to the gtx1060 and nintendo switch as my go-to travel gaming solutions.

    Lol 1440p 30fps with medium-high settings when '4k 60fps' was the stadia pro claim, and epic server farms implying PC ultra settings actually more like xbox one x settings, and graphics further gimped by video compression is a straight up disgrace.

    Seems like it simply is not ready for prime time. Then again, most plebs are fine with 1080p (or lower, e.g. xbox one rdr2) 30fps on consoles so maybe there's still a market....just certainly not for anyone wanting a premium experience.
     
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  12. RnR

    RnR Member

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    Anyone expecting 4k@60Hz on any first person shooters needs to be reminded that the underlying graphics hardware is Vega 56's. Destiny 2 runs at 1080p but will be upscaled to 4k if you are on 4k display.
     
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  13. munchkin1

    munchkin1 Member

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    ????
    How is that relevant? I don't care what it runs on...although hearing it's running on vega 56? Lol???? No wonder the res and settings are gimped so hard...

    They literally advertised it as 4k 60fps or at least 4k/30 and claimed as much openly
    https://twitter.com/MrPhilHarrison/status/1181739544783097858

    Quote Phil Harrison:
     
  14. RnR

    RnR Member

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    Its relevant because it puts a hard limit on reality, despite what swanky managers says on twitter.

    https://www.tweaktown.com/news/6881...-4k-destiny-2-hits-medium-settings/index.html

    The OS is a custom version of Debian, and the graphics API is Vulkan. That last bit is interesting as it potentially allows for multiple gpu's to work together, but it needs to be supported in the game itself. Not aware of any work for multi-gpu on the driver level from AMD.

    I suspect that Google will update its hardware late 2020 to use similar speced hardware as the next-gen consoles and this will enable 4k@60Hz for a fair few games.
     
  15. munchkin1

    munchkin1 Member

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    I’m not sure how anyone could consider that acceptable. It was advertised specifically as 4K/60 at launch, not some unspecified time ‘late next year’ which I suspect is actually just a wild guess.
    If the pro service was advertised as 1440p/30 on medium graphics with video compression artifacts, they would have likely had even less pre orders than the catastrophic fail quantity they got with the lie...
     
  16. RnR

    RnR Member

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    Agreed. They should have kept things at 1080p in all their marketing, reserving 4k for some games ie Sims or minecraft.
     
  17. Sphinx2000

    Sphinx2000 Member

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    This whole service is designed for cheap or console-budget types who don't want to buy their own PC gaming setup, console players are used to crappy specs/performance especially when it comes to 60fps.
    Any PC gamer who cares would simply buy proper kit.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
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  18. nope

    nope Member

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    rdr 2 stadia 60fps 1080p or 4k 30fps is below xbox one x.... not good
     
  19. jET_M@X

    jET_M@X Member

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    Overhyped rushed release with Google leads over promising and under delivering.
    I don't think consumers would be as pissed off if Google Stadia's marketing hadn't mentioned
    cool features like 4K and stream share.
    This is looking like a belly flop of gigantic proportions that could share the same as fate as Google Plus.

    I predict Google having to partner up with Sony or another developer with a large back catalogue of content to make the offering more
    enticing. Sony would seem like a good fit due to their large back catalogue of older playstation (PS1 & PS2) games that would be finally available to PC users.
    Remaking past generation games might be a good fit given Stadia's current limitations.
     
  20. Urbansprawl

    Urbansprawl Member

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    Even then the market who has enough money to pay for full price games but not enough money to pay for a console seems pretty slim. Who is this for? I get that it soaks up excess GPU capacity on GCP which is effectively free but unless they change pricing model the target market just isn't there even if the technology challenges were solved.
     

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