Ground Potential

Discussion in 'Science' started by koss, Sep 14, 2017.

  1. koss

    koss Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,388
    Location:
    Vic
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283444240_Ground_Potential

    I must admit I only understand about a third of this paper, I am fine with electronics, but my understanding of relativity is almost non-existent.
    Hence throwing it open here for discussion in the hope of enlightenment!

    Two things that I found fascinating from the paper was the idea that the proton is the antiparticle of the electron, hence there is no such thing as a positron.

    Secondly, the idea the ground potential almost describes the elusive unified field theory.
     
  2. RobRoySyd

    RobRoySyd Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    7,817
    Location:
    Sydney
    "No such thing as a positron".

    I'm admittedly far from well educated in physics however I'm pretty confident is saying that positrons definitely exist. There's a medical imaging system called Positron Emission Tomography so I guess positrons must exist for it to work. I could cite other evidence of the very real existence of positrons.

    Also worth a mention that the author of the paper is a "self-educated scientist"

    http://www.azimuthproject.org/azimuth/show/Steven+Sesselmann

    The notion that the proton is the anti-particle of the electron is also just wrong. An electron - proton collision does not result in annihilation. If enough force is applied they'll merge into a neutron, that's how a star can become a neutron star.

    I suspect what's getting mixed up is the concept of "ground potential" and "ground state". The former has nothing to do with the concept of "ground" used in electrical engineering.
     
  3. Quadbox

    Quadbox Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    5,931
    Location:
    Brisbane
    It's a self-published article, it's not peer reviewed. You dont really need to read further than that.

    EDIT - To be honest it reads like an undergrad paper written by someone who's studied relativity but absolutely no quantum field theory. Most of his assumptions seem wildly unjustified, and then he just runs with them without any critical comment at all
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2017
  4. merlin13

    merlin13 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,532
    Location:
    back in BrizVegas
  5. zero_velocity

    zero_velocity Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,398
    Location:
    QLD
    Can you please elaborate how ground potential has nothing to do with the concept of ground used in elec eng?
     
  6. RobRoySyd

    RobRoySyd Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    7,817
    Location:
    Sydney
    I'll give it my best shot. :)

    In electrical engineering the use of the term "potential" is laziness. The correct term is "potential difference". Engineers generally assume the "ground" i.e. Earth is zero volts and define the potential as the difference between other points and that. It's assumed that all points on the planet are at the same potential which is generally a reasonable assumption. This concept can be changed for convenience if you're working with something in an aircraft in flight or are on the ISS. Then the metal body of the thing is at ground potential and measurements can be made relative to that. Worth a mention that an aircraft might well not be at the same potential as the Earth just as all points on the Earth might not be at the same potential even if only briefly.

    in physics and particle physics in particular ground potential / state / energy is (I think) the energy of a particle in a vacuum at absolute zero. It's measured in Electron Volts which is defined as the energy needed to move an electron through a field with a potential difference of 1 Volt. Trying to merge this concept with my mind of things electrical hurts my head. To me the electron is the charge but then again I work with trillions of them. As already mentioned to get your head around all this one needs to study Quantum Mechanics and Quantum Field Theory.
     
  7. zero_velocity

    zero_velocity Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,398
    Location:
    QLD
    Thanks RobRoySyd, the reason I ask is because I am in elec engineering, and we refer to 'ground potential' quite a lot in my field when designing earthing systems for substations & transformer sites. Unfortunately in the studies I do, there can be a significant difference between different 'ground' potentials (I'm lazy, I dont call it a difference) also known as Earth Voltage Rise (EVR) which can cause some nasty things to happen to connected loads & nearby people (step potential / touch potential etc). Without diving into it too deeply, it's quite interesting that in reality the 'ground potential' isn't consistent and this is typically why the neutral is tied to ground at multiple points in transmission & distribution systems and why a well designed earthing system is key
     
  8. Quadbox

    Quadbox Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    5,931
    Location:
    Brisbane
    A ground state in a quantum system's just the lowest energy wavestate that a quantum particle (say, an electron for example) can exist bound in in a particular potential well. That potential well could be an electric field, strong force, weak force, whatever, it's just some sort of thing that's trapping the particle there. So, for example, the lowest energy of the electron in a hydrogen atom (which happens to be -13.6eV when you define the zero point of potential energy to be when it's at infinite distance, which is the convention).

    Engineers tend to just mean electrical potential when they bandy the potential word around, but it can be generalised to quite a few different kinds of systems, including some that arent conservative (the magnetic vector potential for example), and indeed to some pretty convoluted setups (as tends to happen in hamiltonian mechanics with multi-degree-of-freedom systems)

    The author of this paper doesnt appear to understand the distinction on the face of it
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
  9. BlueRaven

    BlueRaven Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    3,950
    Location:
    Sydney
    I wonder what the author's result would be if we asked him to calculate some universal "earth" potential?
    And then what would happen if we asked him to relate that to some quantum "ground" state for the particles in a given electrical system.

    A fairly confused response, would be my guess. :)
     
  10. zero_velocity

    zero_velocity Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,398
    Location:
    QLD
    Well, it would be considering that while it is assumed for simplicity that the earth's potential is 0, this is a reference point only (earth potential is generally low anyhow) but does differ depending on where you are (but everyone references their own ground state as 0)
     
  11. Quadbox

    Quadbox Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2001
    Messages:
    5,931
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Incidentally, there is a reputable peer-reviewed journal for physics for which articles are meant to target a... I guess gifted graduate sort of level, which makes their articles usually pretty accessible. The American Physical Society's "Reviews of Modern Physics", RMP for short. Candidate articles sent to it are long-form, broad overview articles of a whole field of current research interest, and the articles typically cover a great deal of background information, which makes them massively more accessible than articles in, say, PRL or Nature Physics.

    As with pretty much all journals you need to obtain them through an academic login, but I'd be happy to grab a paper or two for anyone if there's something that grabs their interest. Or no doubt there are *cough* other sources.

    EDIT - I've also heard good things about, but not read, the book "Quantum Field Theory for the Gifted Amateur". Or, of course, the ever classic Feynman's Lectures on Physics is free online
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017

Share This Page