Half-Life:Alyx

Discussion in 'PC Games' started by power, Nov 19, 2019.

  1. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I'll dig up the literature a little later on, but studies on VR motion sickness are picking up steam. One of the VERY interesting conclusions is that it affects women far more than men.

    Even then, rates for both are quite high, and enough to be an issue for sales. Again, I'll dig up the research and paste it here later, as it is very interesting. Big challenges around how designers plan these titles out, and whether they bother including these audiences or just push forward with more "action" oriented experiences at the expense of losing a percentage of the market that can't consume it.
     
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  2. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    Well no, not really.

    The average person does not get motion sickness in VR when using it correctly.

    If the question was who can get motion sick in VR if used incorrectly? Its very likely 100% of people with two eyes.

    I remember there was a VR game on steam that was literally designed to make make you feel uncomfortable and motion sick, a lot of weird effects and forced movement and things. If your eyes are capable of feeling 3D, you were guaranteed to feel motion sick.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
  3. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Yes, really.

    Correct. But if 10% of a population can't use a device, that's still considered statistically significant, even if they're not "the average". (I think that might be a point you're missing - I'm not saying it's "most", or "more than half". Merely "significant", which has specific meanings in markets, sales and statistics).

    About 2% of the population gets motion sick just watching traditional (non-VR) 3D games on screens, even with high frame rates.

    I know you like to bang on about using it "correctly", but the simple fact exists that even when using it "correctly", there exist a percentage of the population that feel sick, and there's nothing you can do about it. Neither you, nor any expert in this technology, due to differences in human biology you cannot control.
     
  4. bart5986

    bart5986 Member

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    Yes I assumed by quite high you meant something more then 50%.

    I have no idea what the right number would be but something like 5% make sense to me.

    I agree, but the numbers would be 5%ish in my opinion, we won't really know without a study, and one done with proper VR expertise as well.

    Whats interesting here is that high framerates in 2D gaming can actually make people motion sick, whereas high framerates in VR will reduce the amount of people who will get motion sick instead.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
  5. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Definitely not 50%. But again, that's not what "statistically significant" means.

    There's strong concern in developing brains. Ages 2-15 are shown to see significant risk in normal developmental patterns if using any 3D (VR, steroscopic - in fact the whole reason the Nintendo 2DS was made was because Nintendo's internal research backed what larger groups were doing, and saw substantial long term risk in too much 3D in developing brains).

    Women appear to have more motion sickness than men, but the jury is still out on if it's a gender thing or something else where the gender is just coincidence.

    People over 50 are also far more susceptible. But there's debate on if this is due to natural deterioration we all see with age, or experience (i.e.: will current generations who use VR not see the same deterioration?).

    Tough stuff to nail down because this is all quite new (from a medical/biology research point of view). But those numbers all add up to more people who can't use VR compared to traditional gaming on regular screens. Again, whether or not that affects VR game design in the future, who knows. Maybe it's just a targeted thing to a smaller group, which is perfectly fine.
     
  6. Nethiuz

    Nethiuz Member

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    At least unlike the ocean, Technology may be able to overcome the issue for everyone, hopefully! If they can walk around everyday not motion sick technically VR could be as good.
     
  7. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    The big issue is feedback. If the small hairs in your inner ear aren't sensing what your eyes do, that causes big problems for certain people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereocilia_(inner_ear)

    Higher framerate can't combat that. It's much more complex.
     
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  8. jpw007

    jpw007 Member

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    I can't remember where i read this but there were a type glasses or something which had a visible liquid in them, and when worn they helped prevent motion sickness in those who suffered from it due to their eyes being covered, since it gave their bodies a sense of level (which we usually get from the horizon or other surroundings which allow our senses to gauge where 'level' is). Awesome if true and perhaps could be applied to VR to help

    I need to have a dig around. It was pretty cool.

    Though issue with VR is you can't just vomit over the side like you can in a boat lol.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
  9. Nethiuz

    Nethiuz Member

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    Time to develop a way to manipulate the hairs in the ears then.
    I have never felt motion sick and it baffles me why it even exists but i have seen more motion sick people than just about anybody ever and i can tell you for some, it's proper hell!
     
  10. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I've seen these, but the decided lack of research that goes with them makes me worry that are merely gimmick.

    VR has MASSIVE application outside gaming. I've seen big money thrown at this at Government level (I worked back in the 2000s on a Thai government machinery training sim that was cutting edge back in the day, but a joke by today's standard), private (my old man worked high up in the AU coal and gas industry, and VR was big business for safety training) and of course military.

    With those sorts of huge dollars backing research, neither OCAU armchair experts nor simple gizmos are going to be the answer. It could be years or even decades before we understand the human brain well enough to make this work for 100% of sighted people.

    By all means, go ahead. If you can, I guarantee you you'll be a billionaire overnight.
     
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  11. jpw007

    jpw007 Member

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    Hmm, didn't realise they were close to gimmick territory tbh. It was a while ago that i saw it so a shame there isn't any actual supporting research. I suffer from motion sickness only while looking at a screen while in a car and usually that's because when i do i'm looking down, but if i do it whilst looking up i'm usually ok-ish. Anecdotal i know but i wonder if there really is potential for it.

    It's quite different to VR i admit though, being in that instance my body is actually moving but my vision doesn't realise and that's what causes it, where as VR it's your eyes perceiving movement when your body feels none.

    Need proper hardcore VR suits with little omni-directional movable platforms beneath us!
     
  12. mesaoz

    mesaoz Member

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    So I finished this just now... Valve still have the mojo... and if that ending was a wind-up I'm going to be furious.

    Best VR experience I've ever had, bar none. Perfect world for a VR game to exist in.
     
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  13. to4garret

    to4garret Member

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    I relented and paid a scalper on eBay for a new set of Valve Index Controllers to play HL:A with, been checking the international tracking details like 3 times a day since they were posted. They made it all the way from Louisiana to Amsterdam where they've now been returned to sender! :mad:

    eBay mentioned that Australian Customs refused entry of the controllers, which sounds a bit strange as the tracking information never showed them coming close to Aus. They have automatically processed the refund, which i guess is nice - would rather the knuckles though!

    Edit: DHL have said it was returned because eBays Global Shipping Centre didnt declare that there were lithium batteries in the package, Customs at Amsterdam refused them as undeclared dangerous goods. *sigh*
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
  14. wintermute000

    wintermute000 Member

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    If i didn't have kids and could setup room-scale VR I would do so in a heartbeat (and sacrifice a year's worth of other gadgets to fund it)
     
  15. mesaoz

    mesaoz Member

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    I played Alyx in my fairly small office (3x3ish bedroom with a large computer desk in it) and it was fine, just need standing space + wingspan
     

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