1. OCAU Merchandise now available! Check out our 20th Anniversary Mugs, Classic Logo Shirts and much more! Discussion here.
    Dismiss Notice

Heads up: Undisclosed SMR in some WD, Toshiba, Seagate drives

Discussion in 'Storage & Backup' started by pinchies, Apr 21, 2020.

  1. Skramit

    Skramit Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2004
    Messages:
    3,693
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Where I can only find the SMR... got any links?
     
  2. HobartTas

    HobartTas Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2006
    Messages:
    974
    Rebuilding will probably be OK because ZFS now has sequential re-silvering but if it wasn't sequential and ZFS was going to re-build as it originally did by walking downwards starting at the top of the directory tree then the skipping about all over the place would probably mean weeks to get the job done assuming it even completes in the first place.

    WD have released a chart showing which drives have CMR or SMR so if you want to stick with the same brand then get an Red EFRX which is CMR (but not the SMR EFAX) or alternatively get a Red Pro which are all CMR.

    Swap to using ZFS as its not going to care what brand of drives you have in there if its a Raid array.
     
  3. Butcher9_9

    Butcher9_9 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,376
    Location:
    Perth , St James
    First time you write to a SMR drive it goes at full speed since there is no Data to shuffle around.
     
    pinchies likes this.
  4. wwwww

    wwwww Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2005
    Messages:
    6,202
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Seagate Barracuda 5TB 2.5" are also SMR.

    Nothing wrong with this though. I believe these are only sold through USB caddies for which SMR is perfectly fine.

    I broke a bunch out and put them in a RAID array only to find that they take weeks to build.
     
  5. mtma

    mtma Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    5,554
    I wonder if any of the Skyhawks are affected, their doco boasts about fast RAID recovery times and their archive drive doco recommends Ironwolf beside Skyhawk as alternatives for non-archive use. I guess they're going to keep that secret in their marketing smoke and mirrors.

    Probably better that you don't know so they're cheaper than Ironwolf's :lol:
     
  6. mtma

    mtma Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    5,554
    Well the Skyhawks obviously can't be too slow under constant writes, as they're literally marketed for that application. Though Seagate are very careful to be sure that you can't verify their claims as to what that data rate actually is.

    It's entirely possible that a kind of enshinglement meets the needs of basic surveillance DVR work. Woe betide those who use such a drive to make a mass volume though to find out later it will take weeks to recover though :lol:
     
  7. HobartTas

    HobartTas Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2006
    Messages:
    974
    Hard to say but if Toshiba are making some of their surveillance drives in shingled format then I presume that

    (1) Those drives aren't being RMA'd in large quantities from people saying "this drive doesn't work in my digital security system" otherwise Toshiba would see how much money that would be costing them and would have no choice but to revert them back to CMR format, and...

    (2) Most likely if Seagate and WD see Toshiba successfully selling SMR purple drives then they probably would be thinking "If Toshiba can get away with it then so can we, lets also start selling purple drives as SMR".

    That's my line of thinking so I guess the following statement applies "caveat emptor".
     
  8. Butcher9_9

    Butcher9_9 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,376
    Location:
    Perth , St James
    Damn, and surveillance drives are the one real application that needs good writes (that would not be to practical for SSD given large Data Volume and Low IO requirements) . If SMR works for that then all the marketing is really total BS about needing drive optimised for writes.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2020
  9. OP
    OP
    pinchies

    pinchies Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2009
    Messages:
    311
    Location:
    3097, Melbourne
    It's not that all writes are slow - it's that edit-writes are slow. Continuous sequential writing should have no issues with SMR, it's just random writing (partial-shingles) that slow things down massively. Writing a full shingle at a time should be acceptably fast. At least that is my understanding. I would be happy with SMR for surveillance camera use, as long as it is disclosed so that I know what I am getting.
     
  10. Butcher9_9

    Butcher9_9 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2006
    Messages:
    2,376
    Location:
    Perth , St James
    For drive managed SMR even sequential writes can be bad, the drive does not know that data has been erased on your OS (hence a lot of data recovery software easily getting data back), For my drives at least if you filled the drive up, hit delete on everything and then wrote it all again the writes would be slow. The OS marks the data as gone but the drive just knows your want to overwrite some data so it goes about moving it around. (Also there is a 20GB Buffer (on Seagate Archive at least) of C/PMR so the first 20GB goes fast which tricks people into thinking its fast.

    System managed SMR can solve a lot of those problems but I doubt that will be a thing in the consumer space for awhile.
     
  11. flain

    flain Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,760
    Location:
    Sydney
    I can only imagine the performance hit on something like ZFS raidz (which I run). I’d be pretty peeved if I got hit with the bait and switch here so thank you for making the thread.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
  12. holdennutta

    holdennutta Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2002
    Messages:
    7,781
    Location:
    Brisbane
    I’m going try hitting WD up for a replacement as I’ve built the new freeNAS box those drives were started to go into but now I can’t use them. Doubt I’ll get anywhere :(
     
  13. Symon

    Symon Castigat ridendo mores

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2002
    Messages:
    4,764
    Location:
    Brisbane QLD
    This guy did some tests on the SMR vs CMR WD Reds in RAID. He's done 4 previous videos showing the tests but the 14 minute mark of this one is what most would be interested in.

     
  14. boneburner

    boneburner Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    2,709
    Western Digital is the first in the firing line for a lawsuit over it's allegedly deceptive practices.

    Being one of the last big 3 in mechanical storage means a few things, one is that you made it to this point by providing generally good products - so why on earth would you throw this away on such an obvious bait and switch of product internals is beyond me.

    A class action lawsuit was filed by Hattis Law.

    "The lawsuit alleges both that the SMR technology in the newer Western Digital Red drives is inappropriate for the marketed purpose of the drives and that Western Digital deliberately "deceived and harm[ed] consumers" in the course of doing so"

    News via: ArsTechnica

    ps:
    There has been reports of them replacing affected drives when challenged
     
    pinchies likes this.
  15. Symon

    Symon Castigat ridendo mores

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2002
    Messages:
    4,764
    Location:
    Brisbane QLD
    9 day rebuild time for a ZFS array...

     
  16. Matthew kane

    Matthew kane Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2014
    Messages:
    2,833
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Good to see WD getting sued for undisclosed SMR drives.
     
    macktheknife and pinchies like this.
  17. Jaco

    Jaco Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    105
    Location:
    4114

Share This Page

Advertisement: