iPhone 8/8+/X

Discussion in 'Apple iOS (OS & Devices)' started by MR CHILLED, Sep 12, 2017.

  1. thecondor

    thecondor Member

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    Mate I have to agree, im onto my 3rd iphone 7 plus in 2months. And even this one has hardware issues, I have kinda given up.

    Also apple share price dropped after the release last night, I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't drop further over the next few months. But time will tell. And Samsung can also receive some blame with their prices of their note 8 phone and also the s line.
     
  2. OP
    OP
    MR CHILLED

    MR CHILLED D'oh!

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    And the rest. Certainly won't be an option for me at that price.
     
  3. Kookooburra

    Kookooburra Member

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    Same thing again@WTF
     
  4. mils1

    mils1 Member

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    IPhone X @ 5.8", so how big is it not counting the top divided bits? Kinda false advertising if you ask me.
     
  5. thecondor

    thecondor Member

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    So.....

    Iphone x 256Gb - $ 1829
    Apple airpods - $ 229
    Wireless charging pad - $ 100
    Case - $ 40
    Total - 2,198

    Apple take my money, what a bargain
     
  6. leck

    leck Member

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    It's pretty rare that i arc up about pricing for stuff but yeah, that's pretty steep. If it came with the charging pad/headphones It wouldn't worry me. Seems like a bit of a gouge (to me personally) unfortunately :(

    That said - i'm still not minding the look/price of the 8
     
  7. Alfonzo

    Alfonzo Member

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    Sweatshop soap-boxing aside (like Apple is the only electronics company in the world to exploit workers), I actually tried checking into some flights with an Apple Watch a few years back.

    The QR code lit up nice and bright but the actual practicality of having it on your wrist is an incredibly awkward thing. Reason being when you raise your wrist to look at the watch face it turns on, but when you rotate it away from your face it turns off - meaning when you have the QR code up and rotate it away towards the scanners... it assumes you're done with it and turns off. I had to jump onto the conveyor belt at check in to keep it active to show the lady, and then when I got to the gate I had to do much the same to scan to board. Then when I got to the plane, I had to buddy-buddy up to the flight attendant to scroll down and show them the seating details. At each point they've gone "Oh is that the new Apple Watch?", and I had to sheepishly go "....yeah."

    It's a nice idea, but stupid in application. It was the first and last time I tried that feature. It's a far better idea keeping that stuff on the phone.


    Edit: The more I think about it, the more I feel the X model is kind of like the 'edition' or Hermes model of the Watch. It's not supposed to be the every-person model - that's what the 8 and 8+ is for. The X is Apple's 10 year celebration of the iPhone, and they've gone balls to the wall with the features - whether they've been available on Androids before is irrelevant to them - it's the first time it's available on the iDevice. And I'm willing to bet when the iPhone 8S comes out next year, it'll have the OLED display and facial recognition after Apple have had a year of real world R&D from the X.

    And not to sound like I'm completely getting my heckles up defending Apple, but I am finding it hilarious to read about all the hatred online about how expensive the iPhones are when JB has the Galaxy S8 for $1199, the S8+ for $1399 and the Note 8 for $1499. It's not *that* much cheaper on the other side of the pond at all.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  8. Kookooburra

    Kookooburra Member

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    Is apple the best at anything?
     
  9. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    As I said to the other bloke on the other topic, examples of bad things elsewhere does not reduce the badness of this thing. That's not how it works. It is possible to dislike multiple companies for their terrible human rights violations, and not be forced to love one and hate another in some childish "Red vs Blue" fight fuelled by something as shallow as brand loyalty.

    Full agreement here. Phone manufacturers are all taking the piss, I feel. As I said elsewhere, I'm stunned at how many people and small businesses baulk at the cost of a functional computer at half the price, but race out to buy new phones year on year as status symbols. That goes equally for all brands.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  10. Alfonzo

    Alfonzo Member

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    Marketing.
     
  11. OP
    OP
    MR CHILLED

    MR CHILLED D'oh!

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    Yes, selling phones. They sell a metric fuck tonne of them every single year.
     
  12. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    Depends on which metric you're using. Number of units? No. Overall profit? Hell yeah.
     
  13. Shado

    Shado Member

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    One of the reviews, showed that you get to choose if you want full screen or letterboxed. So, both are possible, the same way as cropping / letterboxing has worked in the past. More the silliest thing is that most video content is 16x9, so you're not going to use that extra real-estate you gave up touch ID for unless you want to crop top and bottom of the frame substantially or you're watching ultra-wide movie content.

    You can knock me out and take my fingerprint, but Face ID requires 'active attention' and needs to see you looking at it.

    Which more has me worried it WON'T work when I want it to rather than the other way around. Eg. It works with glasses, but probably not sunglasses (Honestly this is my biggest don't buy reason).

    I am paranoid as hell when entering a pin on a device on public transport (or even in a meeting at work), but touch ID is much safer, and this is not much if at all worse. With a pin if you watch someone put it in, you have access to that device for as long as it takes for it to be remote wiped. With TouchID/FaceID, you lose access to payment methods in mere seconds after authentication, making that an impractical vector for attack (you would need to scan their face while at a payment terminal, from less than an arms length away, while they are looking at the phone!). Then most other apps such as password managers require you to additionally authenticate with those, and if it doesn't see your face/finger for 8 hours or restarts / updates, you need to enter a pin and you can't use face ID.

    They are fairly good at waiting until others have failed to commercialise something, adding the last 1% and making a huge margin. I honestly didn't give a crap about TouchID when I bought a 6, because all my past experiences with consumer grade fingerprint sensors were that they were useless (working even 90% of the time is effectively as good as 0% of the time). It was in reality so accurate and fast though that I set my lock timeout down from a couple of minutes to instant, greatly increasing the security of the device where entering a passcode (in public) every few minutes is impractically inconvenient.

    I'm only aware of one attack vector that has been used against Android/Apple pay successfully, and that was back in the day when they were new, people called banks and managed to convince them to transfer someone else's credit card to their iPhone. That is, they were socially engineered. Given the mere seconds between the required physical authentication required and the payment being valid for, I think this is much safer than any form of payment seen ever (social engineering aside). You basically can't steal it. Even if you intercept the transmission, the number was only ever valid once.

    Yeah, it feels like the backup option to me too. I'd say identical twins can probably fool it (depending on how identical they remain) , if it can deal with growing a beard and wearing hats and glasses, probably identical twins are going to fool it. I'd say family members may also do better than 1 in a million, but probably still sufficiently unlikely.

    Last year I gave upgrading from a 6 to a 7 a miss because the contracts were all so bad (and the 6 other than a slowly degrading battery, is realistically still 'fine'). Basically at that point, the 'best' contract was $200 more than buying the phone outright and going on an equivalent but BYO contract, as those were cheaper even without the handset repayment. The worst Telstra one? $600 more than buying outright. Basically, contracts used to subsidise handsets, but these days just appear to be loans with high interest.

    They might have returned to being better now, but I haven't checked, it's worth doing due diligence though as assuming they're better isn't always true. I'll check again once we have plan announcements for these.

    I'm using like 65GB! curses. It's like Apple know.

    People have money, some buy expensive cars, some buy phones, some have very expensive pool rooms. I think we can all agree, no one needs any of these but people buy them anyway. Unless people are buying them in preference to essentials I'll just ignore it. At least with a phone you know people will probably use it every day.


    Bio-metric security requires 'you', you will notice if someone uses it without your consent, for better or worse. Absolutely it shouldn't be the only form you rely on, but it's arguably better than anything someone can observe or record you using. Better again to use both. I'm not trying to claim it's completely infallible, but I think you're overstating how vulnerable it is to 99% of threats. The kind of effort it takes to defeat this is more than most attackers will bother with.

    Knocked out = touch ID vulnerable. Unconscious, they will never get your FaceID because it requires you to look at it, and they're going to have a hard time keeping your eyes open without messing up your face if you're unconscious. Beating you with a wrench until you tell them your password = always vulnerable. (It's not incredibly uncommon in some countries for people to be abducted and held until they reveal their keycard pin)

    https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/538:_Security

    I really really doubt that will work, my concerns are more the opposite, that it won't work when you want it to. Because to be useful it has to work 99% of the time.

    Net profit margin in consumer electronics? Hype? Parting people from their money? All of these are pretty good things if you're a business.

    I appreciate a good computer because I use one or work and pleasure. But a surprising number of people don't own them and don't need them because they have a phone they LIVE in and it's their single most important possession. Sad in some respects, but perfectly understandable.

    Compare this to people that have collections of things locked away that cost the same but they barely use and maybe don't even often see. I think that's more nuts. I'll spend good money on things I use and enjoy, but the little things will piss me off if they don't work right.

    I kept my iPhone 4 for 4 years. My iPhone 6 is now 3 years old. I'll happily spend ridiculous amounts of money on an iPhone X, but I will be extremely annoyed if for instance, FaceID doesn't work through sunglasses (or works less than 99% of the time). Because TouchID is hands down the best new* technology feature I have used in the last 5 years, and to remove it they better damn well have made the replacement objectively better.

    I don't think the watch is QI compatible. The iPhone 8 / X specifically lists that it's QI compatible, but the watch 3, does not mention QI anywhere in the specs.

    The watch, it looks like, is compatible only with Apple's charging mat (Which is QI compatible but the reverse does not follow), Apple mention they are trying to give the 'additional' technology employed in the mat to the QI consortium (so it may be part of a future QI standard), but it is not already there as best as I can tell.


    ..... /wall of text.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  14. Sankari

    Sankari Member

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    Apple's reached a point at which they can slap any price they want on their products, and people will buy them. It's an enviable position, achieved by exceptional marketing.

    I bet Tim Cook goes to bed every night thinking, 'I can't believe they just bend over and take it!'

    :lol:
     
  15. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I think I want to wait for the security researchers to have a go at this "active attention" thing before I trust it. Right now there's a lot of marketing words being thrown around, and not much solid data. Fairly standard for an Apple product launch, but regardless, I need a bit more data from someone who's not Apple on how reliable and safe this is. Impartial analysis means more to me than marketdroid BS.

    I think this is different. People generally buy expensive toys because of what it means to them, and what joy it brings them in their private life. With phones, more and more I see people buying them *to be seen in public*. The "status symbol" element of these is concerning, especially with kids and teens.

    Your comment about them being purchased "in preference to essentials" has already been parodied today:
    http://www.betootaadvocate.com/huma...-says-millennial-just-preordered-1829-iphone/

    Amusing, sure. But I'm certain everyone reading this knows of at least one person who has already purchased an expensive electronic device, and then complained publicly about money issues in other areas of their lives. I work with dozens of them, in fact. The need for instant gratification is a growing affliction.

    Actually no, biometrics requires a digital representation of a part of you. That's the worry. Ultimately your fingerprint, iris scan, face scan, or whatever other thing is transmitted as a representative string of data to unlock a private key and grant access via PKI. The difference being that I can change a password if it gets compromised, but I can't easily change the string that the system sends as a representation of my fingerprint / face scan / whatever. And this is where the hacks will be when they eventually happen (because all things are eventually compromised, such is the nature of software - we're just betting on the compromises taking longer to arrive than we use this current technology for).

    As above, I'd like to see some independent analysis of all of this before I trust it. Same goes for anything in the field of computer or information security. The word of the person who sells it isn't good enough on its own merit. Thus far, security "experts" are mostly in agreement that biometrics are handy for multi-factor authentication, but shouldn't be relied on as a primary source of authentication nor authorisation (the first two "A"s in the "Triple A security model").
     
  16. connico

    connico Member

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    Do you reckon face is worst than retina?
     
  17. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I am not an expert in this field, but from the little I understand the retina scanning uses different wavelength light (IR as well as visible light) to get a better picture of the eyeball, and from there can better detect forged images. There were notable attacks on early retina scanning where people could use a particular type of photo (often one taken with an IR camera) and some wet contact lenses and fool the scanner. But again, that's been improved since, and it appears better these days.

    There's SFA data on FaceID other than marketing hype, so I'm not sure how it works. It concerns me that Apple are sticking with the line "one in a million faces", almost as if their lawyers told them to. Crypto and security needs better numbers than "one in a million", even if that sounds pretty good to a layperson.

    Again, it's too early to tell. The onus is on Apple to prove the tech is solid, not on us as consumers to believe their marketing. At this point I'm happy to let others guinea pig the product. Either it works, and everyone's happy, or it fails, and it's not me who suffers the loss. As with the first paragraph, other tech similar to this was in the wild for a while before people successfully beat it. I know the Apple fans are confident that this has been brewing inside Apple R&D for over a year now, but I need data, not blind faith. This is science, not religion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  18. Hater

    Hater Member

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    One in a million faces?

    So there's 7 more just in New South Wales.
     
  19. Shado

    Shado Member

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    That's fair. Honestly though Apple have the best track record here, I'd be surprised if they stuff it up that badly. Can't argue with wait and see though.

    I think you're projecting a small subset onto the rest. I'd say it's exactly the same with cars etc. Teens have no business having an $1,800 phone unless they work and earn it themselves, and parents that give it to them deserve a smack for raising spoiled brats.

    It's a bit silly though (I guess that's why it's a parody), because the phone makes virtually f all difference to affording a house, particularly if you were in Sydney. Sure, that and all the evenings out add up, but just the phone alone, is not really going to make or break. People's expectations on the other hand are unrealistic, but that's a discussion for another thread...

    Ah. I do not. The comments I got from co-workers today were 'I'm reconsidering given the price' and 'No way I can afford that'. From people that haven't ever complained about a lack of money before. I find the whole thing hard to understand because I do not think like that and have never ever had money issues.

    The biometrics aren't used remotely however, so it's actually a combination of those biometrics + passwords that you can change, that give access to anything. So yeah, someone steals your phone, and they have your fingerprint to a quality that can fool touchID (not easy, but I'll give you not impossible). Then they can get access to anything within, for about 24 hours, provided you haven't restarted / updated since you last entered your pin. Of course in the mean time you can change all the passwords and credit card numbers contained within, so the attack needs to be relatively sophisticated and fairly swift. I've just never even heard of it happening in real life outside of law enforcement.

    I guarantee as soon as it's released thousands of experts will be trying to break it, only a portion of those will keep any vulnerabilities secret, and probably only then if they are really complex to find otherwise they would rather release it for the kudos before someone else does inevitably.

    If you're protecting against corporate espionage or state actors, I'd be sure biometrics is not enough. But if you're trying to stop some random from lifting your phone and draining your bank account in a few hours, Apple would have to f this up pretty royally to make that a real risk. While I don't *trust* them to not oversell their products, I trust them to not be completely incompetent when billions of dollars are at stake. That's based on track record, not some sort of blind faith.

    So when someone steals your phone, they just have to, on average, show it to 500,000 people at arms length and see if it unlocks.... TouchID was apparently 1 in 50,000. It's a little more complex to break than it sounds given the complexity of a 'try' and the fact that you get locked out of it after a few failures - as Apple did on stage when presenting the damn feature (edited out of the replays) - thus my concern is that they're actually selling a product which is more secure than I want it to be.

    There's a fair amount in the presentation, though I'm sure not the detail you want, it uses multiple cameras so it requires the face to be 3 dimensional, a photo won't work. One in a million is terrible if you can just have a million guesses and guesses are cheap (eg, a pin without or even with rate limiting), but given it locks you out after a few incorrect guesses, and the cost of a guess is high, it's not that straight forward. I'm sure the NSA will be ontop of it in no time, but I don't think your average phone thief is going to have way to break it like you can brute force most software.

    I think there's a certain level of paranoia, where it doesn't matter how good it is, you should still never rely on it. But I honestly don't think 99.5% of people NEED to be that paranoid. The kind of identity theft or other things you're much more likely to face in life you have probably never thought about. Letting other people be guinea pigs is fair, after all, it would be a heap of money to spend to find out it wasn't reliable.

    The only solid data I have on it so far, is that the guy demoing how easy it was to use on stage, had it not let him into his own phone locked him out to
    require a passcode to unlock. :o So, so far, on all the data I have, it's too slow and unreliable at letting someone who SHOULD be able to unlock it, unlock it. Small sample size though, hopefully people will get real review units before launch, or I guess we can all wait longer for the guinea pigs to report back.
     
  20. OP
    OP
    MR CHILLED

    MR CHILLED D'oh!

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