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Lightroom's colour science is completely broken (semi NSFW image)

Discussion in 'Photography & Video' started by Athiril, Jul 14, 2020.

  1. Athiril

    Athiril Member

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    Not once have I heard anyone bring up Lightroom's colour is just broken when they're talking about Capture One or x is better. Which would have been nice to know :Paranoid: Why didnt anyone tell me?

    Specifically Lightroom mobile (which I love using on an iPad especially with the cloud workflow, which is why I got it). I did notice the colour looked off when sending people images over messenger before, but just attributed to other things and not Lightroom being broken.

    Basically, when you export an image from a raw file and Lightroom mobile has to render that raw file, you get messed up colour. The editing preview in Lightroom is correct, but the export looks different to the editing preview in Lightroom and there is nothing you can do to make it look like it does in Lightroom.

    When I export from Lightroom CC/Cloud Desktop (Windows), the image is correct, it matches both the editing preview in Lightroom Desktop, and also matches the editing preview inside Lightroom mobile. So the stupid thing here is that the colour science inside Lightroom mobile is correct but it applies something else entirely when exporting from a raw file. It doesnt seem to do this when exporting from a PSD file etc.

    Sharing the album from within Lightroom to web at least appears to have the correct colour, so distributing albums for download to people is fine http://adobe.ly/2OlYJD3

    Its just annoying when I want to export an image and send it over messenger or upload it from where ever, because Id be doing that from my iPad and not my pc.

    The cloud workflow is the number one thing I love the most about it, being able to cut out uploading previews, multiple rounds of editing, manual render and export (and then wait), and then manual upload (and then wait) when your images can be synced upon ingest, and any edits only need edit metadata synced, and can be proofed and shared directly from the app saves me so much work and makes me enjoy photography a lot more.


    [​IMG]
     
  2. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    What are you viewing the resulting exported raw file in? Is it applying the colour profile correctly?

    Rather than post one combined image like above (or the shared album with just one image), are you able to upload the two separate images somewhere so I can download them and take a look inside various applications / metadata viewers?

    Sounds like it's just not applying the colour profile outside of lightroom (or lightroom isn't embedding it in the exported image).
     
  3. OP
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    Athiril

    Athiril Member

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    I’ll upload some but it is just Lightroom that is completely broken In colour, even screenshotting Lightroom mobile on iPad is identical to the render export from Lightroom desktop, but Lightroom mobiles render export is borked.
     
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    Athiril

    Athiril Member

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    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AM5SCmjVjfUeKPW5lWNYpqH8iHS7tV2B/view?usp=sharing

    Given that sRGB and P3 exports from Lightroom mobile look identical (both wrong), thats obviously not the case since they both have different image data with different profiles interpreting them to the same wrong result.

    Facebook messenger on iPad, which does correctly interpret at least sRGB profiles, gallery on iPad, Windows image viewer, Photoshop on Windows. They all look identically wrong, while the screenshot from Lightroom mobile matches the render output from Lightroom desktop exactly.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
  5. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    On my display, with profiles applied and exif data in tact:

    * 'lightroom desktop p3.jpg'
    * 'lightroom desktop srgb.jpg'
    * 'lightroom ipad screenshot.jpg'

    Look identical, and :

    * 'lightroom ipad p3.jpg'
    * 'lightroom ipad srgb.jpg'

    Look identical.

    When I strip the exif data

    * 'lightroom desktop p3.jpg'
    * 'lightroom ipad screenshot.jpg'

    look identical (and less saturated on my sRGB screen, which suggests they are both indeed DCI-P3), and everything else looks different. That would suggest that your iPad's display is in DCI-P3 colour space (Google suggests that the iPad Pro does - is that what you're using?).

    From here it appears that the export process on iPad is not applying the right colour profile (and/or transforming colours incorrectly). If I split the images into individual colour channels, red and blue are almost identical in all images, however green on the iPad exports is substantially higher - this roughly matches the difference between sRGB and DCI-P3, where the R and B primaries are quite close between the standards, but the G primaries are quite different (see the blue triangle versus the black, ignore the white triangle).

    color-spaces-srgb-adobe-rgb-p3.jpg

    I'll see if I can force-convert them using a DCI-P3 to sRGB transform to see if that proves the point. I don't know Lightroom on iPad well enough to tell you where to go looking, but this seems to be the issue.
     
  6. Munki

    Munki Member

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    That's really bizarre. The iPad exports are both consistently off - but the screenshot is fine. Is this the same for other images?
     
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    Athiril

    Athiril Member

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    Yes, because Lightroom mobile is *displaying* the image correctly, but exporting it incorrectly. Some of my A7s images are fine, but others are not.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
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    Athiril

    Athiril Member

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    Yeah iPad Pro 11 2018, but sRGB works on it, so that isnt an issue really. It is something wrong with lightroom I have an example from my A7s that is different yet again, and the exported version has more intense blues and reds versus the correct version.

    The fact that the P3 and sRGB are both the same shows its Lightroom messing up the image data, since it has to mess up before conversion to that colour space, since they have different image data yet the result is the same wrong colour when the profiles are applied.

    I think it is because the RAW profile is ACR4.4 and Lightroom Mobile has a bug, it clearly understands the older profile correctly, because it can show me the correct image on screen, and both Lightroom Web and CC Desktop can export the image correctly, I am guessing it is applying a different RAW profile during export than it does during editing.
     
  9. herzeg

    herzeg Iron Photographer

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    I have read on this before as being an OSX/iOS platform "quirk" whereby the content is matched to the sRGB color space on the authoring platform and may manifest differently on mobile devices in particular, atypically less saturated - essentially out of your control as far as I understand.
     
  10. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I'd have to agree. Does it happen across all export formats?

    Good luck getting Adobe to care though. That's like pulling teeth. :(
     
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    Athiril

    Athiril Member

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    Hue on blues on my A7s seem different and more saturated and reds more saturated than whats shown in Lightroom mobile, note it doesnt affect it when downloading from Lightroom web, or exporting from Lightroom CC Desktop (Windows).

    Here is what I think is happening. The RAW profile used for rendering and exporting is different to the same RAW profile thats associated with the file.

    Lightroom Web and CC can render and export with the RAW profile associated with the file (ACR4.4 for the 30D images, and Adobe Standard for the A7s images), while Lightroom Mobile is only doing the editing with that profile and then exporting with the built in RAW profile thats interpreting the RAW differently.

    My A7s images that were imported originally in Lightroom on desktop, then imported by catalogue import into Lightroom CC and synced to cloud will be "Adobe Standard", tapping the profile gives a missing profile warning in Lightroom mobile (though its fine in desktop).

    Images imported directly into Lightroom mobile from iPad import and synced from there all say "Matrix" as the profile. They dont appear to have this issue.

    The 30D images have no warning of missing profile and seem fine, just ACR4.4, but if I change the profile and then change it back to ACR4.4 the editing preview now looks like what I get when exporting and rendering the image from Lightroom mobile, and is reflected on Lightroom web, and I think it would be reflected on Lightroom desktop as well, so at least then it would be consistent and Id just need to adjust and correct the images and I'll get rendered and exported what I see in Lightroom mobile as well.

    I usually only export from Lightroom mobile manually to send on messenger and stuff like that, if I want to distribute images to anyone I usually send them an Adobe share link generated from Lightroom, which appears correct and doesnt have this issue.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
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    Athiril

    Athiril Member

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    Only options are tiff, jpg, dng and original, it also does it on tiff.
     
  13. elvis

    elvis Old school old fool

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    I'd bring it up on the Adobe user forums. From experience, Adobe devs are very touchy, so perhaps go at it tactfully. Jumping in screaming "bug!" gets you ignored quickly, even if you're right.

    I'd post test images exported from both (maybe banal SFW images if you can), explain your workflow and settings, and ask why people think it's happening. Hopefully that will prompt the devs to try for themselves, replicate the bug, and have it get some attention.
     

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