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Mining as a Business

Discussion in 'Blockchain & Cryptocurrency Mining' started by IncredibleBulk, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. koss

    koss Member

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    What about scaling up to something like Genesis Mining eventually? How to do that?
     
  2. OP
    OP
    IncredibleBulk

    IncredibleBulk Member

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    To mine commercially, you would have to find a way around electricity costs in Australia. Either a bulk purchasing deal from a wholesaler or connecting to a pre-existing massive solar array

    If my end goal where to head that way, I'd be pouring any "profit" into sourcing additional hardware. Until the point where continuing at home became impractical (either due to electrical overload and / or cost of cooling or lack of space)

    My original calculations factored in being able to run 30 gpu's at my current rental, anything larger then that would require finding a commercial space and then finding a way to offset that electrical cost as much as possible. If you could convince a bank to give you a business loan (personally I think that's unlikely given the volatile nature of crypto), you could spend up big upfront, claim as much of the equipment cost back as you can and just have a break even point based on

    - loan repayments
    - electricity
    - rent
    - decreasing profit factor based on increasing difficulty
    - equipment replacement (let's put it bluntly, those GPU's aren't gonna last forever)

    The trade off being alot of those costs could be offset come tax time as long as you can prove that you are earning an income from the mining

    Realistically... it's still a gamble. You are doing it in the hope that the crypto you mine (or the BTC that you cash out to immediately) goes up in value at a later date. Calculations look HORRIBLE now but when I first did them about a month ago, it looked much healthier
     
  3. shredder

    shredder Member

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    In general, I'd say it all comes down to economies of scale. Lower per-unit costs, applying to electricity and equipment. The specifics would be all down to the business deals you individually make.

    They way you organise the tax etc would be a very key part of it, but we won't go into that because I know you don't like it. It's just an unpleasant aspect that has to be dealt with if you want to be a true legitimate business and ultimately end up with max funds in your own bank account, clear and free of any future obligations (if that's what you want).

    Alternatively if you just want to accumulate and hodl crypto for the foreseeable future, then it's understandable why you might care less about those aspects for the time being.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  4. 426

    426 Member

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    Melbourne
    I would imagine the principle is exactly the same, however you would have new challenges at scale.
    Thats beyond a business, thats industrial.

    So really large building. (if you're going the way of Genesis)
    Massive airflow and filtering.
    Lots of employees/contractors to deploy, slightly less to maintain. (Trustworthy would be great)
    Jumbo rental (apparently) to get stock direct from manufacturer (assuming they will sell to you at scale)
    Deep pockets.

    You'd probably want your electricals set up in a modular fashion.
    Sub boards on each row of racks, breakers/safety for each point/cluster of rigs

    Another way would be to modularise everything.
    Dark had a nice idea with shipping containers.
    Rather than large building(s), a suitable plot of land with same power supply and set up the containers as self contained components.
    Add more as you're able to afford them.
    Perhaps add solar panels on top of them, or around them.


    You're looking at some bucks even getting a shed at your house like the one you posted set up.

    Can of worms upgrading to 3-phase (if you havent already got it).
    Trench/bore and lay cable could cost 5K, could cost 20K depending who you ask. (if you're running new cable, get the heaviest stuff you can. No point doing 10mm, get 25mm+ to carry at least 80A/phase (depending on distance))
    Truck appointment from provider to disconnect/reconnect premesis and change meter (~1K, will come through on your next bill). Lots of hoops to jump though just to even get the ball rolling. Find an electrician that has done this before, will save you bouncing phone calls between your provider and biller. (if you want to start it yourself, its the biller you raise the request through)
    Electrician to upgrade the switchboard for your property (~2k minimum).

    Shed could cost anything, my suggestion would be to lay a raised floor, and use refridgerator panels for the walls/roof. Will end up cheaper than building a shed and insulating it (unless you dont care about insulation, I do)
    Extraction fans and filters depends on the size of the shed/volume of air you need to move.
    Racking. Whatever you plan for depending how your rigs will be set up (can even use the racks as the basis of your gpu frames)
    Electrical. Another potential can of worms depending how easy it is to get power from your main board to the shed. Voltage drop is a factor depending on distance and cable size, as is temperature once the cables get loaded up. If it goes through your roof, some air flow around the cables helps.
    Sub boards set up and circuits run.
    Internet. Cable run should be simpler, just protect it and be careful of cable distance.

    I think it would be fair to say, only bother doing this if you can accept the actual cost of the power. Its not viable in every residential area, it just depends on what provider you have and the discounts you can get.
    Put your numbers through a spreadsheet or something first, and calculate for 24/7 usage (peak/offpeak) and the discount if applicable.

    If you're over 20c, then just start looking for small factorys with decent power delivery and reasonable power costs first.
    It has to work out cheaper for rent+power than what you can get at your house to make it worth doing (rather than home setup).

    At this point, if you're going ahead with it, the problem is going to be actually getting your 200+ GPUs.
     
  5. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

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    30 gpu is generate heat, to keep them adequately cool will coat additional. Also the power drain will need to be calculated against you domestic power circuits.
     
  6. OP
    OP
    IncredibleBulk

    IncredibleBulk Member

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    Yep... there's the current killer. Everything else can be factored in... but it's worthless if you can't source the GPU's without paying a MASSIVE premium
     
  7. 426

    426 Member

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    I've got 55 running in a double garage at the moment. About 7KW of power draw.
    My ventilation is not great. Roller door is cracked about 15cm, manhole is open, and the rear door is cracked about 10cm also (with security door shut).
    40C outside showed 49C inside. GPUs were about 68C with fans on them about 70%
    33C outside gets about 42 inside. GPUs stay about 63C with fans at 60%

    When garage temps are around 30C, the GPUs are under 60C with 40% fans.

    Best thing I did to keep temps (of the GPUs) down was to use pedestal fans to just keep the air moving around the rigs.
    This made a huge difference, even in the winter.
     
  8. 426

    426 Member

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    Try getting a bulk order premium or not.
     
  9. OP
    OP
    IncredibleBulk

    IncredibleBulk Member

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    Again bulk orders only possible if you're willing to drop big money on the startup. Which alot of people wouldn't be willing / able to do

    I do find it funny how most people start with one or two cards just to tinker... see a bit of profit come in and before you know it, they're spending all day sourcing additional cards and thinking "where can I put this new rig" haha
     
    AdamBullock likes this.
  10. 426

    426 Member

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    October/November, 50k would get you at least 70 Vegas, retail, without any real issues.
    You can get about 40-45 of them if you could just order them. Assuming stock, you'd need to order them with 40 different accounts/addresses.
    No supplier will care about 40 cards, or even 70, at any price, if you don't already have some sort of relationship with them.

    I reckon you'd be lucky to even get a reply to an email enquiry as a "bulk" GPU customer these days.
    I bet if the arse falls out of the market and they are overstocked on GPUs, that you'll get that reply (6+ months later if it happens).
     
  11. OP
    OP
    IncredibleBulk

    IncredibleBulk Member

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    I actually emailed a couple of stores asking if the 2 card purchase restriction was for business customers as well. One replied with "yes, no-one is allowed due to manufacturer restrictions" and the other never replied

    Makes me wonder though how many of those stores are using the cards they buy to mine for themselves haha
     
  12. 426

    426 Member

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    I've had orders cancelled on me, with 1 guy telling me that they want to sell the cards to people that will use them for their intended purpose.
    I pointed them at the AMD site with the blockchain driver and their marketing around using GPUs as mining/compute, but they still cancelled the order.
    I did end up getting 8 cards from them (my original order) but using friends accounts to purchase them.

    The GPU police got me...
     

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