N00b wanna learn more about database programming

Discussion in 'Programming & Software Development' started by xhanatos, Jul 9, 2007.

  1. Elyzion

    Elyzion Member

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    I thought you couldn't use it for commercial things like putting it on a web server and hosting your sites on it. But could use it on your local machine for learning and development.


    I'm living in Auckland > NZ, and i told my company if nothing happens in the next month i'm moving to Australia. I'll be in Canberra for 3-4 weeks cos i haven't had a holiday in 2 years. (yup, worked all my holidays for this company). Then im moving up to Sydney to look for a job.

    (i just had an argument with my accountant cos he thinks my sole purpose for leaving is money, saying i'll never get 70-100k/yr ill start out on like 25-30 and it will take 17 years to get to like 100k)
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2007
  2. Bradzac

    Bradzac Member

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    Your accountant is an idiot. Grad. no experience .NET roles go for 40-45k.

    With 2yrs exp, contract, $85k/yr+.
     
  3. QuakeDude

    QuakeDude ooooh weeee ooooh

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    for sure. IT industry in Melbourne at least is fairly good at the moment, plenty of good jobs on offer and not the usual flood of candidates. Might not be such a bad time to move if you're thinking about it.
     
  4. Elyzion

    Elyzion Member

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    I got 3yr's exp in C#, 1yr in VB.Net.

    And i know Coldfusion, PHP, ASP3. And lots of other stuff (not as experienced obviously) but theres nothing for me here.

    I would rather take a junor position on 50k/yr and be learning then sitting here on 65k not learning anything. Even if working here could make me a few mill.

    Half the reason im in this forum is people sometimes ask some questions that are... outside of what i know or different from what i do so its good cos i can learn from it by helping or reading what others have to say.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2007
  5. Bradzac

    Bradzac Member

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    Have you got an updated copy of your CV handy?
     
  6. Elyzion

    Elyzion Member

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    Yeah. It's at home. I did it on saturday. I'll be home in a couple of hours.
     
  7. mordy

    mordy Member

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    IT is it and comp sci is comp scie. The difference is that CS teaches about the theory behind computers and applications, IT is "here we have stuff to do so-and-so, now lets teach u to do stuff with it"

    Theres often problems when IT people try to program things like
    -writing apps in VB.app or Access
    -not understanding good coding practices
    - "if it works" is their motto, it could be the slowest crappest patchiest solution, but if it works its fine.
    - VB6 programmers :(
     
  8. Bradzac

    Bradzac Member

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    Wow, you've really outdone yourself this time. I used to think you're a complete moron, now... now I don't know what to think.

    FYI, my IT course covered C/C++/Java/ASP/Perl/HTML, Data structures and algorithms in C++, Software design, Systems Analysis and Design, Microprocessors (Assembly programming, program a robot to follow a line drawn out on a board), Distributed applications (i.e. Programming for cluster machines) Project Management, Operating systems (i.e. programming drivers in C that reads a floppy disk in a disk drive) Database Design (Oracle) to name a few and not once VB6/Access.

    We learnt "good coding practises" in our first semester of our first year right through our final year, and judging by your previous posts on this forum, you never learnt them in the first place.

    As for - "if it works" is their motto, it could be the slowest crappest patchiest solution, but if it works its fine.

    That kind of defeats the purpose of programming against a linux cluster, does it not?

    The REAL difference is, CS is for those who want to research (thus the academic remark earlier), although not many do anymore and most move into a Soft. Eng. role, IT is for those who want to solve organisational problems, Soft. Eng is for those who want to develop software.

    Traditional Roles:
    CS: Academic.
    SE: Software Developer.
    IT: Admin/Management.

    I hope you CS guys want to code for the rest of your life.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2007
  9. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

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    Not much of a recomendation being considered anything by MS... ;)
     
  10. GumbyNoTalent

    GumbyNoTalent Member

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    Don't take this the wrong way Bradzac or Mordy but either or degree and you'll still useless when you first leave Uni, sure you know the theory and you might know how to code but until you really understand the industry (non IT) and its specifics that you work.
     
  11. QuakeDude

    QuakeDude ooooh weeee ooooh

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    Two things: Firstly, Degree's don't mean shit these days with many organisations. If you're in a role where they want to show you off to external customers ,then having a degree is everything. I've worked for large companies like HP, Siemens, Aussie Post, and plenty of smaller ones - Only once was I ever asked whether I felt my lack of formal degree impared me in any way. That was just before I was offered the job over a bunch of other people :lol:

    Obviously it varies for the different types of IT roles, but many companies these days don't have alot of money to spend and want to get people in that can do the job. A degree doesn't guarentee that unfortunately. I've interviewed plenty of candidates who have had degrees but had absolutely no common sense. Scary stuff.

    Secondly, the best thing you can do for yourself is strive to be good at your job. Learn what you need to in order to make yourself a good choice for any potential employer. In the case of Database Programming, learning database design pays off tenfold once you start working on large database systems, or have to change a design mid-project because a customer has decided that they want to do something differently.
     
  12. Luke212

    Luke212 Member

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    degrees come 4th priority after work ethic, experience and evidence, and industry qualifications.

    things i learned at uni where: how to learn, how to write essays, how to balance work and friends, commitment to a goal.

    oh and i learned SQL at uni ;)
     
  13. Luke212

    Luke212 Member

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    im a MS Poodle. what r u?
     
  14. Bradzac

    Bradzac Member

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    I never thought a degree was worth more then the paper it was written on. I just like arguing with stubborn undergrads who don't realise how much more there is to being a good analyst/programmer then typing out code.

    Not to mention mordy gives me the shits with his constant stream of uneducated crap he splurs in every thread he tries to contribute too.

    Dude - fucking google it before posting.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2007
  15. Luke212

    Luke212 Member

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    nah mordy is fun. As long as he isnt giving someone life advice its harmless hehe
     
  16. Elyzion

    Elyzion Member

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    lol Quote for History.
     
  17. mordy

    mordy Member

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    haha,

    I think ive been reading www.worsethanfailure.com for too long.

    I wasnt really starting with IT people, i was just trying to make joke about how CS ppl are better than IT people, obviously it didnt work out too well.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2007
  18. Ze.

    Ze. Member

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    That'd be the case at your uni but all uni's are different.

    It used to be the case at newcastle due to the flexibility of the CS degree then but they've fixed that and it's far more CS focused.
    Actually I've stated many times that there is far more to being able to program.

    It doesn't take long to teach someone how to program , it does take a long time to teach them the rest of the skills that make a good developer though. Including knowing multiple styles of languages and solving solutions , knowing algorithms and knowing software engineering practises such as proper design and analysis.

    A good project needs good analysis , design and development otherwise it simply won't deliver on its goals in a satisfactory manner. A good developer should have skills in all three so he can understand who he's working with , including people who don't have a development background.
    I've never said you won't get anywhere but from my experience the typical IT grad isn't as useful as a CS grad and they would've been far better doing a CS degree.
    It's a stupid rule for stupid developers. If you can't handle the application being done in layers and have proper documentation then you are an inept developer.

    I've seem bloody stupid code that is hard to read and slower, whilst I've seen excellent code that is easy to read and fast.
    I do wonder how deep your course went into the theory perhaps it's one of the few decent IT courses out there. Just out of interest where did you do it?

    I don't really think a CS , IT or SENG degree hampers one in the workforce from what I've seen and been told they are pretty much treated the same. It may give other developers the shits though :)
    Mordy gives most of the shits.

    Honestly going by my experiences I wouldn't rely on a piece of paper when hiring someone , it'd be one of my filters unless someone had the right experience though but it'd only get them into the interview , then I'd test them and during probation I'd see how they cut it if they made it through the interview.

    However I'm going down a traditional CS path into research so I won't be doing that for many years unless I leave academia for a while to capitalise on an idea of mine.
     
  19. Luke212

    Luke212 Member

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    All things being equal, if you start with good code, and you optimise it you will end up with more complex code. I'm not saying totally unreadable, im saying more unreadable.

    It's a valid principle myself and published developers have acknowledged with success. Another symbiotic paradigm is "Do not optimise early" for exactly the same reason.

    You sound very much like a permanent Newcastle post-grad friend of mine btw hmmm. oh, and does mordy give you the shits because you are both competing for most arrogant male on ocau?
     
  20. bugayev

    bugayev Whammy!

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    You clearly are not a good developer. Good developers, like the ones I work with, write good code to start off with because they have detailed, meaningful standards, they know exactly what they are doing and the constraints they are working under.

    They perform code reviews with other developers and from there they produce optimized, high-performance code in various languages with a minimum of obfuscation or increased complexity.

    Meeting the problem first then optimizing is a symptom of poor design, and poor architecture. You should be designing and producing an optimal solution from day one, thats what good developers are paid for.

    n-tier approaches have significant advantages, and I am a big advocate of that. However using the "I have a business layer so NER" to say that stored procedures aren't useful, and that inefficient code is a result of optimization indicates you don't really know what optimizing means.

    Ultimately if you have good code which meets performance benchmarks, then you don't need to optimize it, so why try?
     

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